Fortress creature choices

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Metathron
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Fortress creature choices

Postby Metathron » Feb 8 2008, 13:52

Last and least, the Fortress. Image

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Postby Mirez » Feb 8 2008, 18:26

1) Mountain Guard, defensive stance is just to OP better atk and defence are worth the -1 initiative
2) Skirmisher, crippling wound is very very usefull (and maybe a little overpowered?) while I don't see anything paticular usefull to harpoon strike (unless when a creature is dragged on a fire trap, it explodes) but that ain't happening so.....
3) Whitebear Rider, blackbear riders have just to low attack even though paw strike > bear roar so unless I have soldiers luck I prefer whitebear riders
4) Battlerager, not only because the berserer look ridiculous but the +5 hp is very welcome aswell battle rage > berserker rage a lot anyways
5) Rune Patriarch, even though Rune Keeper's stats are way superiour I prefer to have a firewall to keep the enemy shooters busy and crossfire, I'm using it to shoot anyways not to melee
6) Thunder Thane, unless I'm going to use ignite + mark of fire I prefer thunder thanes since storm strike is a lot more reliable then flamewave (I've never seen it do any serious damage)
7) 50-50 really! both are very powerfull the magma amor and superiour stats may make magma dragon more populair but liquid fire breath can be very powerfull when your enemy has to keep replacing his shooters
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Postby Dacarnix_ » Feb 8 2008, 18:55

1 - Shield-guard 99%. I think that a 0-90% reduction of damage received (shield wall) is worth vastly more than a flat +5 defense.

2 - Harpooner 90%. Their damage is so much better that I don't mind the loss of 2 hp and Crippling Strike, and Harpoon Strike can be very useful for battlefield manipulation.

3 - Blackbear Rider 90%. Paw Strike has vastly superior odds behind it so long as you move a decent distance before attacking. That's well worth a slight decrease in attack.

4 - Battlerager 99%. Not a priority unit anyway, but they're better than the alternative.

5 - Rune Patriarch 75%. These two are really close with regard to their give and take, but Crossfire, +1 initiative, and 1 Fire Wall beat better damage, +5 hp, and 2 Fireballs in my book.

6 - Flame Lord 50%. Another initiative 11 creature is very welcome for Fortress, but I really like the Thunder Thanes aesthetically. I know that's a bad reason to choose a creature, but oh well.

7 - Lava Dragon 75%. Enemies don't make these guys a high priority target, so Magma Shield rarely does anything. That makes Lava Dragons slightly preferable for me.

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Postby Elvin » Feb 8 2008, 19:26

For me it's creeping units against hero battle units.

Shieldguard I always prefer, I mean shieldwall is too good to miss..

Tier 2 depends.

Blackbear riders in creeping, white in battle IF I have soldier's luck.

Berserker in creeping, battlerager later.

I lean towards patriarchs.

Hard to tell but I rather prefer thunderthanes, lategame with stormstrike and rune combos is fun :D

I prefer to stick with magmas unless enemy faction does not have low damage dealing units.
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Postby okrane » Feb 8 2008, 19:35

1. Shieldguards. Always. No point in having a creature that cannot move. Plus the damage reduction from shield wall is better.
2. 60/40 for the Skirmishers. Cripling would rocks and they are not great damage dealers anyway
3. Black Bear Riders. 80% For amazing abuses.
4. Berserkers: Ever tried casting Righteous Might Endurance and Divine Strength on them? 70+ Attack on a lvl 4 unit on a hero with low attack anyway.
5. I don't care, I never use them
6. Thunder Thanes: Rune of Berserking/Battle Rage ftw
7. Magma Dragons: Unkillable. Plus Magma shield makes them scary even to hit.

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Postby Mirez » Feb 9 2008, 16:57

1) I don't see why you guy's think shieldwall is so good ;|
sure it might help you against the first attack of a dragon or fast unit but after the first attack it's useless, I prefer a solid 5!!!!! defence I mean how many times do you move those tiny dwarfes anyway?

2)
2 - Harpooner 90%. Their damage is so much better that I don't mind the loss of 2 hp and Crippling Strike, and Harpoon Strike can be very useful for battlefield manipulation.

battlefield manipulation??? wtf? like I said before harpoon strike is useless unless it works in combination with fire trap

3) paw strike isn't that good without soldiers luck imo

4)
4. Berserkers: Ever tried casting Righteous Might Endurance and Divine Strength on them? 70+ Attack on a lvl 4 unit on a hero with low attack anyway.

no cuz they are probably dead after 3 rounds

5)
5. I don't care, I never use them

ah so your still in the *imma get rune of charge asap and pwn with giants + bear riders* fase (wich is powerfull if your making a might heroew) but if your planning on ignite abuse I recomment to use these before cavalery etc.

6) don't see why 1 more initiative is worth losing storm strike

7) nc
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Postby parcaleste » Feb 9 2008, 17:11

1 - I prefer Shield Wall, definitely. Can save your (shooters) ass and piss some Dragons sometimes ;|

2. Skirmishers - I just find harpooners useless :)

3. Actually I stuck with the White Bears. Gotta try the other ones some other time.

4. Berserkers all the way! I find the No Retaliation too much useful.

5. Crossfire and Fire Wall to the rescue!

6. I love the Stormstrike, but sometimes Dragons + Patriarchs + Flame Lords + Armageddon is pure PQWN@G3... + the Flamewave looks great :D

7. I stuck with the Magma Ones here, as I use them mostly to defend my Patriarchs :)

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Postby okrane » Feb 9 2008, 17:50

haloswift wrote:1) I don't see why you guy's think shieldwall is so good ;|
sure it might help you against the first attack of a dragon or fast unit but after the first attack it's useless, I prefer a solid 5!!!!! defence I mean how many times do you move those tiny dwarfes anyway?

3) paw strike isn't that good without soldiers luck imo

4)
4. Berserkers: Ever tried casting Righteous Might Endurance and Divine Strength on them? 70+ Attack on a lvl 4 unit on a hero with low attack anyway.

no cuz they are probably dead after 3 rounds

5)
5. I don't care, I never use them

ah so your still in the *imma get rune of charge asap and pwn with giants + bear riders* fase (wich is powerfull if your making a might heroew) but if your planning on ignite abuse I recomment to use these before cavalery etc.


1. You move them a lot actually: to kill enemy shooters, or even walkers in week 1. For the final battle I would surely like some mobility. And usually in the last battle the first hit is mainly the most important one.

3. It procs quite a lot even w/o soldiers luck, and it's a good way to abuse neutrals. I think Soldiers Luck is really good on Dwarves as 5 out of 7 units have a proc that requires it:
Cripple Wound
Paw strike/Bear Roar
Bash
Mark of Fire
Flamewave

4. Actually when playing Helmar you can get Endurance/Righteous Might in one cast on them. I see you never crept Horde of Archdevils in week 4 with around 50-60 Berserkers...
In the final battle I would think about using others but a good first hit is really important anyway.

5. dwarves are better as might then as magic, and the resources needed to build those priests are better used someplace else... If the game drags I'll prolly get Rune Patriarchs.

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Postby Metathron » Feb 9 2008, 18:03

Ever since HoF, I've been rolling my eyes at the mere mention of this town, but lately I've come to appreciate them more.

My picks are almost exactly the same as haloswift's.

1. Mountainguard 65%, precisely with haloswift's reasoning in mind. But I'll choose shieldguards too, not only for the sake of diversity but also because there isn't such a big difference between them and mountainguards actually.

2. Skirmisher 90%: These units stink as damage dealers, so crippling wound is about the only reason I'll have them in my army.

3. Aren't Paw Strike and Bear Roar essentially the same? They both cause the targeted enemy to lose their accumulated initiative, no?
My choice is Whitebear Rider 60% of the time, mostly because I prefer the more offensive unit for the dwarven hero who is already very defense-minded.

4. I like both equally, even if they die too easily for my taste.

5. I want to say I prefer the Patriarchs slightly due to Firewall and Cross Attack, but Firewall is not very useful (unless against shooters) and the cross attack is mostly relevant only in battles against other heroes who have their stacks close together. Keepers on the other hand will do a constantly higher amount of damage than Patriarchs, except against enemy heroes, so the two are tied in my book. 50 - 50

6. Slightly in favour of Thunder Thanes 55%.

7. Definitely Magma Dragons 80%. The strength of the Fire Breath cannot be denied. The Firewall of the Lava Dragon does a meagre 10 damage per unit.
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Postby Mirez » Feb 9 2008, 19:08

1. You move them a lot actually: to kill enemy shooters, or even walkers in week 1. For the final battle I would surely like some mobility. And usually in the last battle the first hit is mainly the most important one.

I never move them, they just stand there, protecting my Skirmisher, they barely have attack so why use them to attack

3. It procs quite a lot even w/o soldiers luck, and it's a good way to abuse neutrals. I think Soldiers Luck is really good on Dwarves as 5 out of 7 units have a proc that requires it:
Cripple Wound
Paw strike/Bear Roar
Bash
Mark of Fire
Flamewave

yes, but I think your missing my point, with soldiers luck paw strike > bear roar, without soldiers luck I prefer whitebear riders because of their stats

4. Actually when playing Helmar you can get Endurance/Righteous Might in one cast on them. I see you never crept Horde of Archdevils in week 4 with around 50-60 Berserkers...
In the final battle I would think about using others but a good first hit is really important anyway.


50-60 berserkers in week 4 mmmm :|
is that even possible?
I dunno about you but everytime I use berserkers I end up having a small stack of them because they tend to die a lot

I tried using helmar and his light magic abusing special but it din't help much because the little amount of mana he produced was gone in no-time, I never went lategame with him though
treants are dendrosexual 0_o

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Postby okrane » Feb 9 2008, 20:55

start playing multiplayer, you'll see a whole new dimension of the game.

Berserkers you can easily get that many with their horde building and an external dwelling.
And if you think shieldguards are meant to stay put, you don't know the power of Ingvar.

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Postby gzork » Feb 9 2008, 22:03

1. Shieldguards, the no-moving defense buff is too low and unless you move them. They already have large shield so they're good against ranged attacks, and if a melee unit runs up from 5 spaces away or so, that's a huge damage reduction. Even if it's just one attack, -50% dmg is going to matter a lot more than +5 defense throughout the game. Odds are you'll need to move them at least once anyway, depending on who you're fighting.

2. Harpooners for a siege, Skirmishers for the field. Not much else to say, they have pretty meager damage either way, so Skirmishers would usually be my pick for the sake of sheer durability, but in a siege where field manipulation can give you a serious edge (pulling people into the moat is fun!) and your ranged units wont' be as threatened, Harpooners hands down.

3. They're pretty similar, but I'll typically go with Black Bear Riders, use haste on them and they can get around pretty fast, delaying turns without retaliation, also, more controlled field manip is always good.

4. I'll usually take Berserkers, if yo compare them side by side, Battleragers seem like the obvious choice, but I usually don't have either in my army anyway and they need a fairly useful special like Berserker Rage to make them viable, instead of flat stat boosts. You lose bash but Berserker Rage guarantees no retaliation anyway.

5. Patriarchs almost all of the time, in large battles it's easy to abuse cross attack and Fire Wall.

6. Although I genuinely like Flame Lords more, Thunder Thanes unless I go Destructive. Flamewave's a proc, and the chances of the enemy situated in a way for it to be fully effective aren't too great. Stormstrike, however, is guaranteed, and using it at the start of the fight can hit their entire army pretty hard. Thunder Thane + Rune of Berserking = happy fun time. But then again, not many units can stand up too long against Armageddon + Mark of Fire.

7. Magma Dragons, no contest. Losing 5 health, def, Magma Shield, and Fire Breath isn't exactly worth a scrawny dmg boost. You're not gonna end up with a whole lot of dragons and even if the field's covered with 'em 10 dmg per dragon's not making any difference.

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Postby aaelgr » Feb 9 2008, 23:19

The Fortress alternates are varied. Some of them are better than the originals. whilst some are not.
I still stick to Shieldguards, though having read what's been said before I can see why some people would go for the Mountain Guards. The Shield Wall ability is very useful for defending shooters. If I were to attack with them then I can see why Mountain Guards are better suited to this, especially if I have Rune of Charge. I'll have to try it next time I play...
Skirmishers all the way! I can't see how Harpoon can be that useful, when Crippling Strike can help make up for Fortress's slower melee units. The No Melee Penalty comes in useful too.
I can't really see the difference between Paw Strike and Roar, but I usually side with the Blackbear.
Battleragers can actually take a punch (well, better than Berserkers can!) and get faster once they've been hit. Bash is always useful (it's why I tend to pick Militia over Brutes) and I'm never going to complain about having extra damage against larger creatures.
I usually go for the Keepers as Fireballs are more useful (in my opinion) than Firewall. Crossfire can be useful, but only really kicks in when the enemy clusters their units.
Thunder Thanes. Stormstrike is very useful, against both single and clustered units (c.f. Crossfire). The Flamewave never seems to trigger that often, and when it does it never seems to do a lot of damage.
Magma Dragons are more durable. Lava Dragons may have the little Firewalls, but those walls don't do much damage. Fire Breath is more useful, and Magma Shield makes hitting them less preferable to shooting them (bit like Foul Hydras).

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Postby Dacarnix_ » Feb 10 2008, 3:00

For those who care...

Bear Roar has the potential to affect the 6 tiles adjacent to the White Bear in its front arc. The odds for scaring are standard for large creatures and are 2x standard for small creatures. (Potentially more creatures affected)

Paw Strike can only affect the ceature attacked, but the odds are Nx standard where N is equal to the distance the Blackbear Rider walked before making the attack. (Typically much better odds of triggering)

-----

Personally, I like Blackbear Riders better, but let's keep in mind that we're discussing preferences here. No one is "wrong." They're just expressing opinions.

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Postby Metathron » Feb 10 2008, 14:04

You are so wrong, Dacarnix_. :tonguehands: :D

Thanks for the elaboration. It seems like the abilities of the two are almost even. Bear Roar seemed to trigger a lot for me in my last game, don't know if it has anything to do with (the bears') stack size.
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Postby Mirez » Feb 10 2008, 17:43

okrane wrote:start playing multiplayer, you'll see a whole new dimension of the game.

I play mulitplayer a lot, thank you Image

okrane wrote:Berserkers you can easily get that many with their horde building and an external dwelling.

IF there is an external building that is
and for some reaons you keep 'forgetting' that berserkers die very easy

okrane wrote:And if you think shieldguards are meant to stay put, you don't know the power of Ingvar.

nope, I played ingvar once and I din't like the result
when I'm playing with a might-based heroew I prefer Karli then Ebba and on small maps wit low recourses Brand

o well I guess it's a matter of playstyle
treants are dendrosexual 0_o

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Postby okrane » Feb 10 2008, 19:45

don't use them except in fights you know they'll be useful then.
The map I was talking about was BfH, and you know then what pain is breaking with Dwarves.

Berserkers really cut through those devils and Black Bears ensure they attack much more rarely...

I played ingvar once and I din't like the result


Half the heroes community is banning Ingvar for being imba and you don't like him... hmmmmm....

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Postby Mirez » Feb 10 2008, 20:08

okrane wrote:Half the heroes community is banning Ingvar for being imba and you don't like him... hmmmmm....

like I said it's a matter of playstyle
isis is considered the strongest god aswell yet I'm barely 1600 with her (but that's a different game)
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Postby Metathron » Feb 10 2008, 20:33

What makes Ingvar such a demigod?
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Postby ikkiphenix63 » Feb 11 2008, 3:41

Metathron wrote:You are so wrong, Dacarnix_. :tonguehands: :D

Thanks for the elaboration. It seems like the abilities of the two are almost even. Bear Roar seemed to trigger a lot for me in my last game, don't know if it has anything to do with (the bears') stack size.


All these probability-based attacking abilities are based on relative stack size of the attacker and defender (the dread knights are en exception, they have a fixed 25% probability), it's in the manual (you should take a look at it). The probability for bear roar will be computed once, while the probability for paw strike is rerolled for each tile walked to the target (in actual battle you'll likely have 6 chances for it at each black bear's attack, and with soldier's luck you'll get... 12 tries !).

Sure Bear roar affects more than one unit, but on the other hand you have less tries to trigger it. Furthermore, I prefer Paw Strike because it works on everything (except the mountain guard maybe and entangled units) while bear roar has no effect on undeads, elementals or mechanical units.


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