How can demons reach the surface of Ashan?

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aeroxy
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How can demons reach the surface of Ashan?

Postby aeroxy » Jan 23 2015, 8:53

Hi folks, I am not very certain about a setting in Might and Magic's Ashan world, which is the prison of demons known as Sheogh. It is said that Sheogh was created by the seventh dragon Sar-Elam to lock away demons, and it is located beneath Ashan's surface. Demons apparently can travel to the surface of Ashan through portals. If a demon is killed, its soul will return to Sheogh and reincarnate as an incubus or a succubus. Some special weapons can sent demons directly back to Sheogh without killing them, like the Heart of Griffin.

However, it looks like for some demons it is not a problem to be "locked" in Sheogh because apparently succubi like Xena (in Dark Messiah) or Biara (in Heroes V and its expansion packs) can reach the surface of Ashan freely - while other demons like the Demon Sovereign Kha-Beleth cannot get to the surface of Ashan unless it is a few months before and after the lunar eclipse. This setting is quite strange, unless there is something I don't comprehend yet.

If Xena and Biara can get to the surface of Ashan so easily, why can't Kha-Beleth simply learn their ability instead of doing a tons of works including raping human Queen Isabella in order to create a half-demon hybrid Sareth, whose mission was to seek Skull of Shadows (Skull of Sar-Elam) which enlist the user some ability to free demons from Sheogh?

A theory is that demons will not be able to travel through the portal to reach to the surface of Ashan if their power level is high. In this case, they can kill themselves and return as incubus and succubus, and then they can get to the surface of Ashan, growing up again to become powerful demons like pit lords...

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Postby ywhtptgtfo » Feb 11 2015, 0:36

The short answer is that their writers are bad. They are human like you and me and they did a terrible job writing a story. The one big plot hole they did not cover adequately was that Biara impersonation of Isabel. That was (among other things) just terrible on an epic proportion.

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Postby aeroxy » Feb 11 2015, 0:59

[quote="ywhtptgtfo"]The short answer is that their writers are bad. They are human like you and me and they did a terrible job writing a story. The one big plot hole they did not cover adequately was that Biara impersonation of Isabel. That was (among other things) just terrible on an epic proportion.[/quote]

I get the idea they don't genuinely care about the story when they wrote the scripts for Might and Magic Heroes V and they only had a vague idea about what they are making - and they either made Dark Messiah first (I remember that there was a story about it being in development for a long time) or they were thinking about Dark Messiah the whole time - and yes DM was a terrible story on its own anyways (this supposedly mighty Messiah Sareth acts like a **** through out the whole game).

So far, if we exclude the scenarios and campaigns from HOMM 5 and its expansion pack and pretend DM was just a fan made game, the stories seem to be fine standing up by themselves in MMH 6 (no more HOMM huh, better for Google search lol). The whole seven cities civil war period seems to be much more interesting than the later Messiah plot.

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Postby Neidhaart » Feb 11 2015, 9:42

I like to imagine that due to the defect in the prision small cracks in the "wall" lets a demon pass for a time. The bigger the demon, the harder it is to press through those cracks. Imp? No problemo. Kelly? To big and powerfull.
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Postby Avonu » Feb 11 2015, 18:43

First, demons are prisoners in Sheogh. They can leave it only during Bloodmoon Eclipses, using Human, Elves, Dwarves or Nagas as host bodies or be summoned by mages, powerful artifact or large amount of Dragon Blood crystals.
They can walk freely on Ashan during eclipses or in host bodies but otehrwise they are unnable to survive there.

Second, Incubi and Succubi are reincarnated souls of corrupted Humans, Elves, Dwarves or Nagas, usually chaos worshippers. They are different from other demons in that, they can walk on Ashan in any time, not just during eclipses, and act as demons' spies, saboteurs and corrupters.

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Postby aeroxy » Feb 11 2015, 21:38

[quote="Avonu"]First, demons are prisoners in Sheogh. They can leave it only during Bloodmoon Eclipses, using Human, Elves, Dwarves or Nagas as host bodies or be summoned by mages, powerful artifact or large amount of Dragon Blood crystals.
They can walk freely on Ashan during eclipses or in host bodies but otehrwise they are unnable to survive there.

Second, Incubi and Succubi are reincarnated souls of corrupted Humans, Elves, Dwarves or Nagas, usually chaos worshippers. They are different from other demons in that, they can walk on Ashan in any time, not just during eclipses, and act as demons' spies, saboteurs and corrupters.[/quote]

That's actually a good setting. :) This is why Kiril, Sarah, and Raelag (demon form) can walk around on the surface of Ashan just fine.

But there is a flaw! HOMM5 is actually not during the eclipse neither was its extension pack. It was years after the eclipse war. So I think the demons can be on the surface of Ashan just fine as long as they find a way to get there.

My imagination is that. Demons can come and go freely as long as they get the portals to work, and many of them do. They just can't invade the kingdoms because they need powerful portals to transport a large army. Otherwise demons just live peacefully with other races on Ashan and some of them even make new demon babies (Kiril and Sarah).

Also Dark Messiah was probably not the first human-demon hybrid either. He was just happened to be one of the very powerful demon and a very powerful human's offspring.

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Postby ywhtptgtfo » Feb 12 2015, 2:07

Erm... Kirill, Sarah, and Raelag are corrupted but not demons.

The eclipse only weakens the prison and nothing actually stops demons from surviving on the surface.

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Postby aeroxy » Feb 12 2015, 6:33

[quote="ywhtptgtfo"]Erm... Kirill, Sarah, and Raelag are corrupted but not demons.

The eclipse only weakens the prison and nothing actually stops demons from surviving on the surface.[/quote]

Agreed. My point exactly. :)

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Postby Neidhaart » Feb 12 2015, 10:22

"I did put the fires out."

"You made them worse!"

"Worse?!... Or better?"

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Postby aeroxy » Feb 12 2015, 21:53

[quote="Neidhaart"][url=http://www.penny-arcade.com/presents/page/heroes-of-might-magic-page-1]Still a **** implementation of a prison[/url]. :)[/quote]

Exactly. Also demons are not too bright. They already knew if they will lose if they invade for so many times, they should have learned to negotiate a remote land, for example one where Orcs reside, and then they will fight only one or two forces before they establish a base. Then they can summon more demons and build a large army for the expansion. B-)

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Postby Tress » Feb 13 2015, 21:00

One rationalization that demons are summoned to surface by earth agents(cultists etc). The stronger demon the harder it gets, so you can get minor ones up easily while sovereign cant be summoned unless barrier is broken. Dont think they can just leave Sheogh at will.
Unlike imps , succubi are smarter and more useful so they are good targets to be summoned. Besides Xena couldnt roam around freely, she was bound to Sareth. Biara on other hand might have walked with the rest of them during the eclipse. In fact same coud be true for Xena, as she might be leftover from Eclipse , those years back.

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Postby aeroxy » Feb 13 2015, 22:37

Tress wrote:One rationalization that demons are summoned to surface by earth agents(cultists etc). The stronger demon the harder it gets, so you can get minor ones up easily while sovereign cant be summoned unless barrier is broken. Dont think they can just leave Sheogh at will.
Unlike imps , succubi are smarter and more useful so they are good targets to be summoned. Besides Xena couldnt roam around freely, she was bound to Sareth. Biara on other hand might have walked with the rest of them during the eclipse. In fact same coud be true for Xena, as she might be leftover from Eclipse , those years back.


Xena was boung to Sareth because she was in fact serving Kiril not the sovereign. It's a way to get her loyalty, although she was trying to betray Kha Beleth the whole time.

Kha Beleth is the leader of demons. It doesn't necessary make him the most powerful demon - he is just good with his (demon) leadership skill and a powerful (demon) mage. He in fact couldn't defeat Kiril for hundreds of years before Kiril left Sheogh. I think summoning demons is a both way process, that the demon must agree to come to aid. Kha Beleth was not summoned because he knew if he comes to the surface he will be soon defeated on the surface alone by himself (and a couple of assistants), besides the fact he needs to stay in Sheogh to keep demons under his rulership - this is why he always send someone else to do his bidding. You don't see Obama flying to middle east to bomb ISIS for the same reason.

Again demons was prisoned probably because (like said in Shades of Darkness), that Ashan world needs demon to stay in order - the same reason why faceless attacked angels when angelic force defeated demonic force and was going to eliminate the dragon of chaos a long time before the elder war.

In other words, the setting of Ashan world can be understood as the demon was intentionally kept in Sheogh and allowed to invade the surface once a century to keep the surface residents united - as we see in MMH6 and MMH7, these surface races are quite self-destructive without a common enemy.

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Postby ywhtptgtfo » Feb 14 2015, 1:56

The faceless' betrayal is just a retcon based on the premise that the elimination of demons will eliminate chaos which will then eliminate order and meaning.

Fact is, there's plenty of entropy in Ashan even without the demons.

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Postby aeroxy » Feb 14 2015, 3:40

ywhtptgtfo wrote:The faceless' betrayal is just a retcon based on the premise that the elimination of demons will eliminate chaos which will then eliminate order and meaning.

Fact is, there's plenty of entropy in Ashan even without the demons.


The seventh dragon Sar-Elam may share similar belief like the faceless, after all they were both seekers of knowledge. It is unknown what happened when he left a crack on the prison but his mistake certainly helped the surface races to unit under wars and self destructions for generations to come.

And yes, I think the Void appears to be a bigger threat to the world of Ashan. If dragons represent Ashan, does the Void represent the rest of the Ashan universe?

BTW since Ashan world certainly does not share similar physics like our universe, it is reasonable to think Ashan is not necessarily a planet - meaning it came be a flat surface world - which means there might not be other planets in Ashan universe. Moons and stars and suns might just be hovering above the Ashan surface world.

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Postby Sligneris » Mar 7 2015, 0:16

aeroxy wrote:But there is a flaw! HOMM5 is actually not during the eclipse neither was its extension pack. It was years after the eclipse war. So I think the demons can be on the surface of Ashan just fine as long as they find a way to get there.

My imagination is that. Demons can come and go freely as long as they get the portals to work, and many of them do. They just can't invade the kingdoms because they need powerful portals to transport a large army. Otherwise demons just live peacefully with other races on Ashan and some of them even make new demon babies (Kiril and Sarah).

Also Dark Messiah was probably not the first human-demon hybrid either. He was just happened to be one of the very powerful demon and a very powerful human's offspring.

Not... exactly... Literally everything you said here is a nonsense that contradicts the lore.

Heroes V does takes place during the eclipse. It's called War of the Sixth Eclipse for a reason. The eclipse war 'years before' - it was just a different eclipse, the Fifth one.

Demons cannot leave Sheogh freely, period. They need mages to summon them, they need eclipse, they need to possess someone, they need magical energy to stay on the surface once the eclipse ends to prevent being banished or even destroyed.

Demons cannot normally reproduce with the Elder Races or even breed in the same way. There is only one Human-Demon hybrid and it took marking its mother with Chaos magic at birth and powerful rituals.

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Postby aeroxy » Mar 7 2015, 0:27

Sligneris wrote:
aeroxy wrote:But there is a flaw! HOMM5 is actually not during the eclipse neither was its extension pack. It was years after the eclipse war. So I think the demons can be on the surface of Ashan just fine as long as they find a way to get there.

My imagination is that. Demons can come and go freely as long as they get the portals to work, and many of them do. They just can't invade the kingdoms because they need powerful portals to transport a large army. Otherwise demons just live peacefully with other races on Ashan and some of them even make new demon babies (Kiril and Sarah).

Also Dark Messiah was probably not the first human-demon hybrid either. He was just happened to be one of the very powerful demon and a very powerful human's offspring.

...Not... exactly... Literally everything you said here is a nonsense that contradicts the lore.

Demons cannot leave Sheogh freely, period. They need mages to summon them, they need eclipse, they need to possess someone, they need magical energy to stay on the surface once the eclipse ends to prevent being banished or even destroyed.

Heroes V takes place during the Sixth eclipse. The 'previous Eclipse' was the Fifth one, when Alexei died.

Demons cannot normally reproduce with the Elder Races. There is only-one Human-Demon hybrid at it took marking its mother with Chaos magic at birth and powerful rituals.


Clash of Heroes takes place in 929 YSD, between 4th and 5th eclipse. :devil:

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Postby Sligneris » Mar 7 2015, 0:32

I thought we were talking about Heroes V?

Demons in Clash of Heroes receive a lot of help from demon cultists - they are summoned by them via portals, so I can only suspect these same mages give them minor artifacts for them to consume.

Azh-Rafir was one of the most powerful wizards at the time, so he probably could afford granting them enough power in order to allow them to walk on Ashan.
Last edited by Sligneris on Mar 7 2015, 0:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby aeroxy » Mar 7 2015, 0:34

Sligneris wrote:I thought we were talking about Heroes V?

Demons in Clash of Heroes receive a lot of help from demon cultists - they are both summoned by them via portals, so I can only suspect these same mages give them minor artifacts for them to consume.

Azh-Rafir was one of the most powerful wizards at the time, so he probably could afford granting them enough power in order to allow them to walk on Ashan.


:tired: I guess in this case the setting is fine. :devious:

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Postby Sligneris » Mar 7 2015, 0:49

Glad I helped. If you have any other lore-related questions, go ahead and ask. :)

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Postby aeroxy » Mar 7 2015, 0:52

Sligneris wrote:Glad I helped. If you have any other lore-related questions, go ahead and ask. :)


Can angler and human make hybrid babies? (same goes elves faceless etc.)


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