It's oficial, marketing departments are full of idiots.

Because we play other games too.

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Postby Corribus » Apr 28 2006, 15:41

ThunderTitan wrote: Pardon me for not starting a whole lecture on economic theory. And i'm pretty sure that you either make a profit or you don't. Unless ur Enron. :devil:

It has nothing to do with "economic theory". You make a statement like "Microsoft takes a loss because it can make up for the loss with revenues from other areas." Then you make a statement like "Nintendo actually makes profits," thereby implying that Nintendo is the better company and that it will continue to compete, and additionally that Microsoft is just lazy. While it's true that Microsoft is able to take a loss because they have their fingers in other areas that make up for it, no company, especially one as shrewd and aggressive as Microsoft, willingly takes a loss in any area and accepts that just because they're making money elsewhere. Microsoft took losses on the original XBOXes because they were trying to carve a niche for themselves in an already saturated market. By offering their product at deficit prices, they attract new customers and establish a userbase for future products, and they hope to begin making profits from future consoles. Nintendo already has (had) a user base and so this was not necessary for them: however, Nintendo's laughable marketing department and inability to sign many of the big game manufacturers will cost them in the long run. It's long-term planning, not trying to make short term profits. Of course, the REASON that Microsoft (and Sony) is able to do this is, as you said, because they are so huge that they can absorb these losses without blinking an eye; a smaller company like Nintendo does not have that luxury, which is why, ultimately, Nintendo will go eventually extinct or will be bought out by someone else. It may take a while, because Nintendo is a video game mammoth and they have a lot of loyal fans (myself included), but Nintendo is consistently behind these days, despite very good hardware, because they just aren't putting the games on the shelves that Sony and Microsoft are. I have always bought Nintendos, but my next console will probably not be one. If it wasn't for the Zelda games, I probably wouldn't have bought the last two, either.

So there's more to it than "either you make a profit or you don't". It's about establishing your customer base so that you ensure your ability to make a profit in the future. The losses they are taking now is essentially an investment in the future of the company.

Incidentally, this is the same type of "future planning" that Ubisoft is doing with the Might and Magic franchise. And just with Microsoft/XBOX, it will pay dividends for the company.

And there I go again...
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Postby DaemianLucifer » Apr 28 2006, 16:01

Corribus wrote:Incidentally, this is the same type of "future planning" that Ubisoft is doing with the Might and Magic franchise. And just with Microsoft/XBOX, it will pay dividends for the company.


It is?How?Theyre not using copy protection and have slashed the price for their game so that many people will rush to buy it?

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Postby ThunderTitan » Apr 28 2006, 16:05

@Corribus:

And where pray tell did I say that MS and Sony were being stupid by taking a loss, or that it was wrong??
My comment about profit was a response to the "it only seems so" of LordHoborgXVII.

I was just saying that if Nintendo keeps making a profit it won't go under. I agree that if Nintendo doesn't get some good games it will fail, but if if the status quo stand they'll be fine.
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Postby Corribus » Apr 28 2006, 16:24

DaemianLucifer wrote:It is?How?Theyre not using copy protection and have slashed the price for their game so that many people will rush to buy it?

Read my Discourses articles, particularly the early ones. They are all about establishing a fan base.
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Postby Campaigner » Apr 29 2006, 17:51

Read slashdot half an hour ago and wondered just what the **** the Nintendo Wii was. Nintendo Revolution was a fitting name since that console has a chance of revolutionising gaming with its remote handcontrol.

If you read the Mars issue of GameReactor (which you probably didn't since it's only published in the Nordic countries :devil:) you would understand a great deal about Nintendo.

If I had a scanner I would upload it to imageshack or something and link to it but since I don't got a scanner I guess I have to tell what I remember from it instead....

Nintendo was great in the 80'ies but their view of 3rd party developers as enemies instead of partners which they demanded a lot of money for each game sold, made difficult about what is and isn't allowed in their games is one of their greatest mistakes ever. It was that thing that caused superb companies such as Rare, Square and lots of others to leave Nintendo and work on games for other consoles.
That made the N64 to have little games, and after a few years they had to portion out games so atleast one game could be released each month.

Another of their critical mistakes is their pigheadiness. They don't compromise one bit. It's their way or the highway. That made them back out in the CD addition to their Super Nintendo since Sony didn't cater to their demands. But Sony wouldn't give up and released their Playstation. The rest is history. (Ironic that the Playstation will probably take over the entire videogaming world and destroy Nintendo forever).

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Postby Corribus » Apr 29 2006, 17:58

Campaigner wrote:Nintendo was great in the 80'ies but their view of 3rd party developers as enemies instead of partners which they demanded a lot of money for each game sold, made difficult about what is and isn't allowed in their games is one of their greatest mistakes ever. It was that thing that caused superb companies such as Rare, Square and lots of others to leave Nintendo and work on games for other consoles.
That made the N64 to have little games, and after a few years they had to portion out games so atleast one game could be released each month.

Exactly, not to mention Nintendo's attitude towards games with "mature" themes.
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Postby Derek » Apr 29 2006, 19:08

Honestly now, has Rare made that great of games? I'll concede Goldeneye is great, but most of there other games are not nearly as good as the competition. It is not as though Microsoft has truly done great with them either.

@Corribus
What do you mean by "mature" themes? Nintendo values gameplay above all else, and when they release one of their firstparty games, like Metroid or Zelda, it always dominates.
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Postby Corribus » Apr 29 2006, 20:54

Derek wrote:Honestly now, has Rare made that great of games?

Well it's more of an issue of not attracting the big game producers, rather than an issue of which producers actually make good games.

@Corribus
What do you mean by "mature" themes? Nintendo values gameplay above all else, and when they release one of their firstparty games, like Metroid or Zelda, it always dominates.

It's a well documented fact that Nintendo of America forced, for example, Square to drastically change (in many opinions, for the worse) the content of the Final Fantasy games for release in the States. This included toning down language/violence/sexual themes. Sony did not have such restrictions, and Nintendo lost out. Losing the FF line of games really hurt, IMO, the N64 platform. Nintendo has corrected this to some extent by allowing more mature games on the GC, but the damage has been done.
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Postby Derek » Apr 29 2006, 21:36

Nintendo asked Square to make those chnages due to the politicians that were so angry at games, recall the fiasco over Mortal Kombat and you'll know what I mean. I don't necesarily think what Nintendo did was the best decision, but at the time I don't think there were mny other options. People are much more uptight about stuff like that in the States(I would know.) Nintendo does not ask for such things nowadays, for the record.

And I still think it is worth noting that Rare, and many other 'big' producers, oftentimes do not make the best games. Many of the multi-platform(key word is many) games are not that great and rarely generate a huge amount of sales. I will admit that Nintendo could do more to reach out to third parties, but for the most part it is not that big of a deal.
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Postby Corribus » Apr 30 2006, 3:47

Derek wrote: I will admit that Nintendo could do more to reach out to third parties, but for the most part it is not that big of a deal.

Then why are they dead last in the console wars?
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Postby Derek » Apr 30 2006, 17:46

Corribus wrote:
Derek wrote: I will admit that Nintendo could do more to reach out to third parties, but for the most part it is not that big of a deal.

Then why are they dead last in the console wars?


It depends on how you look at Nintendo. They actually manage to turn profits with their merchandise, something I know Microsoft hasn't done and I am pretty sure Sony hasn't done either. Frankly that sounds like success to me. But, if you're talking about product moved then they do have some ground to cover.
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Postby Corribus » Apr 30 2006, 18:00

Derek wrote:It depends on how you look at Nintendo. They actually manage to turn profits with their merchandise, something I know Microsoft hasn't done and I am pretty sure Sony hasn't done either. Frankly that sounds like success to me.

And here we come full circle. You're not looking at the big picture. There was an article in Time magazine not too long ago (6 months, maybe?) about the console wars and particularly the XBOX360, and the fact that the XBOX hadn't turned a profit yet. I encourage you to read it, if you can find it. If I recall it explained the state of the business quite nicely, though it was a while ago that I read it, so I could be mistaken.
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Postby Derek » Apr 30 2006, 19:53

Corribus wrote:
Derek wrote:It depends on how you look at Nintendo. They actually manage to turn profits with their merchandise, something I know Microsoft hasn't done and I am pretty sure Sony hasn't done either. Frankly that sounds like success to me.

And here we come full circle. You're not looking at the big picture. There was an article in Time magazine not too long ago (6 months, maybe?) about the console wars and particularly the XBOX360, and the fact that the XBOX hadn't turned a profit yet. I encourage you to read it, if you can find it. If I recall it explained the state of the business quite nicely, though it was a while ago that I read it, so I could be mistaken.


Are you speaking of the X-box creating market share and then the 360 doing better because of this?
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Postby Corribus » Apr 30 2006, 20:54

Derek wrote:Are you speaking of the X-box creating market share and then the 360 doing better because of this?

In a nutshell... I'm going to look for the article this evening, though I might have thrown that issue out.
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Postby Derek » May 1 2006, 0:43

Corribus wrote:
Derek wrote:Are you speaking of the X-box creating market share and then the 360 doing better because of this?

In a nutshell... I'm going to look for the article this evening, though I might have thrown that issue out.


But what about the lackluster sales of the PSP compared to the DS? Frankly even though the Playstation has performed well at acquiring market share they apparently haven't been able to push that towards another system.

I've probably already read the article, but if you do find I'd still like to glance at it.
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Postby ThunderTitan » May 1 2006, 1:14

Derek wrote:But what about the lackluster sales of the PSP compared to the DS? Frankly even though the Playstation has performed well at acquiring market share they apparently haven't been able to push that towards another system.


Well in the end it's the games that make or break a system. From what I understood the PSP didn't get enough good games.

The Wii sound interesting enough, even if it has a retarded name. Lets hope it has some good games so it can stand beside the other two.
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Postby Derek » May 1 2006, 16:03

And anyways the Revolution/Wii has a good chance of succeding right off the bat because of the qurikiness of it. Frankly many people thought that the DS would do bad because the two screens were too much to bear. Guess what? The DS is probably the best handheld ever, and the two screens are the reason for this. Big N tapped into a market that existed(lots of women bought the DS for Nintendogs) and are going to try the same thing with the Revolution/Wii. I'd doubt Nintendo going anywhere but up from this point.
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Postby ThunderTitan » May 1 2006, 16:28

Anyone stupid enough to buy/not buy a console based on its name deserves to be beheaded.... so if it's any good more power to them.

Still doesn't change the fact that its a stupid name. weeeeeeeeeehhhh.....
Then again maybe it's a marketing strategy to get everyone talking aout the console, and then they change the name back to Revolution just before release.
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Postby DaemianLucifer » May 1 2006, 16:33

ThunderTitan wrote:Anyone stupid enough to buy/not buy a console based on its name deserves to be beheaded....


Does that go for games,too? :devil:

ThunderTitan wrote: Still doesn't change the fact that its a stupid name. weeeeeeeeeehhhh.....
Then again maybe it's a marketing strategy to get everyone talking aout the console, and then they change the name back to Revolution just before release.


Or they will change it to revolution,and then change it back to Wii just a day before the release :devil:


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