Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby Thonkerton » Oct 24 2019, 9:32

I don't really see any reason to change the NWC dungeon stuff, it's vanilla and it's not a bug nor do you need to do exploit anything to do it. While it is an easy way to gain money in MM6 sphere, it's essentially just trading goods in MM7/8. As in, with some patience and running around you can make some money if you really wanted to, especially later on with Lloyd's Beacon and Town portal, though usually at that point you have enough gold to buy everything everywhere. I've never used the NWC trick nor really done trading as I've never really seen need for it. The most limiting factor for obtaining good gear from shops is that the shops have a very limited stock to sell anyway. There are other ways to cheese money out of the game but they're all vanilla stuff and shouldn't be removed just for some abstract balance that will never happen. If the NWC gold thing bothers you, just don't use it, it's not like you'll ever accidentally bump into it.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby Echo » Oct 24 2019, 14:18

I agree, it doesn't matter. This is an ancient game, we've all played it before and likely without using the glitch. If someone wants to exploit it to get 10k gold every time so what? It's their game, their fun. At this point it's all about self-imposed challenges anyway.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Oct 24 2019, 15:19

I'm standing with both Thon and Echo on this one as well, Orzie. As for design purpose, do you know the best assumption as for why does MM6 NWC Dungeon acts like it does? It was (according to said assumption) meant for playtesters of (vanilla) MM6 to get nice stuff as quickly as possible, so that they could playtest lategame dungeons when the game was still in its early stages and they just left that in as both an Easter egg and sort of an in-game tribute to everyone that was working and playtesting MM6, so yeah ... and when it comes to stuff like this, you know how the saying goes: "let them play the game the way they wish to, no matter what", which is why optional characters that would never be seen in the "base game" like Dracoliches and Minotaur Liches exist in this mod in the first place (check vids about MMMerge from Altered Gamez on YouTube if you don't believe me), just like Echo says, and you also have free will of your own to not use stuff like that, just like Thon says. If you cannot resist the urge to use that, it's all ok, but don't go try impose restrictions on them to all of us just because you couldn't resist yourself ... and seeing how "moldable" is this mod becoming anyways it's not beyond my thought that Rodril would introduce a "code switch" for us that would change properties of those stuff as soon as we flip it the other way anyways. :P
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby orzie » Oct 24 2019, 16:13

In my opinion, trying to re-balance the vanilla weapons/armors and not doing anything to the original flaws of the game is outright pointless. A game requiring the player's personal decision to not use exploits which are known from the start (MM6 is a very old game) is a badly designed game. It is different to cheats, which are the developer instruments on the first place, it's the built-in option of the game which was often found by accident, being essentially a secret location.

It's not a necessity, however, because free time and all, but I had my 5 cents.
Last edited by orzie on Oct 24 2019, 16:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby Templayer » Oct 24 2019, 16:24

Thonkerton wrote:I don't really see any reason to change the NWC dungeon stuff, it's vanilla and it's not a bug nor do you need to do exploit anything to do it. While it is an easy way to gain money in MM6 sphere, it's essentially just trading goods in MM7/8. As in, with some patience and running around you can make some money if you really wanted to, especially later on with Lloyd's Beacon and Town portal, though usually at that point you have enough gold to buy everything everywhere. I've never used the NWC trick nor really done trading as I've never really seen need for it. The most limiting factor for obtaining good gear from shops is that the shops have a very limited stock to sell anyway. There are other ways to cheese money out of the game but they're all vanilla stuff and shouldn't be removed just for some abstract balance that will never happen. If the NWC gold thing bothers you, just don't use it, it's not like you'll ever accidentally bump into it.
Echo wrote:I agree, it doesn't matter. This is an ancient game, we've all played it before and likely without using the glitch. If someone wants to exploit it to get 10k gold every time so what? It's their game, their fun. At this point it's all about self-imposed challenges anyway.
SpectralDragon wrote:I'm standing with both Thon and Echo on this one as well, Orzie. As for design purpose, do you know the best assumption as for why does MM6 NWC Dungeon acts like it does? It was (according to said assumption) meant for playtesters of (vanilla) MM6 to get nice stuff as quickly as possible, so that they could playtest lategame dungeons when the game was still in its early stages and they just left that in as both an Easter egg and sort of an in-game tribute to everyone that was working and playtesting MM6, so yeah ... and when it comes to stuff like this, you know how the saying goes: "let them play the game the way they wish to, no matter what", which is why optional characters that would never be seen in the "base game" like Dracoliches and Minotaur Liches exist in this mod in the first place (check vids about MMMerge from Altered Gamez on YouTube if you don't believe me), just like Echo says, and you also have free will of your own to not use stuff like that, just like Thon says. If you cannot resist the urge to use that, it's all ok, but don't go try impose restrictions on them to all of us just because you couldn't resist yourself ... and seeing how "moldable" is this mod becoming anyways it's not beyond my thought that Rodril would introduce a "code switch" for us that would change properties of those stuff as soon as we flip it the other way anyways. :P

orzie wrote:In my opinion, trying to re-balance the vanilla weapons/armors and not doing anything to the original flaws of the game is outright pointless. A game requiring the player's personal decision to not use exploits which are known from the start (MM6 is a very old game) is a badly designed game. It is different to cheats, which are the developer instruments on the first place, it's the built-in option of the game which was often found by accident, being essentially a secret location.

It's not a necessity, however, because free time and all, but I had my 5 cents.

I agree with all the people previously mentioned in this post. You seem to be the only one who perceives the NWC dungeon as a flaw. I see it as a nifty Easter egg. Removing stuff there would be a disrespect to the original developers, as it stands as a tribute to them.

And now let's see if people find the secret Merge dungeon with Bug Catchers and such, and the treasures that lie within! :P :D :D
Last edited by Templayer on Oct 24 2019, 16:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Oct 24 2019, 16:51

Templayer wrote:I agree with all the people previously mentioned in this post. You seem to be the only one who perceives the NWC dungeon as a flaw. I see it as a nifty Easter egg. Removing stuff there would be a disrespect to the original developers, as it stands as a tribute to them.

And now let's see if people find the secret Merge dungeon with Bug Catchers and such, and the treasures that lie within! :P :D :D

That as well as they show us how was NWC doing at those specific parts of the time those games were made, thus yeah ... and heck, having these in might give us bonus points in case we'd have to stand in the court as well if you ask me.

Was that thing made in the 1st place though? :devious:
Yes?

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby raekuul » Oct 24 2019, 22:37

I have many things to say about how greedy the spacebar is in Merge.

Somehow, it's harder to exploit NWC Dungeon in the early game in Merge than in 6 rather than easier, in spite of the greedier spacebar. No more going there by accident.
Last edited by raekuul on Oct 24 2019, 22:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby Arch-vile » Oct 25 2019, 11:52

Hello all.

I found one problem. Obelisks 3 and 4 (MM8) will be lost from automatic notes when you visit the Escaton. This quest cannot then be completed.

https://ibb.co/FbzQ12L
https://ibb.co/cCxDftK
https://ibb.co/3YS0XTV

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby Templayer » Oct 25 2019, 16:34

SpectralDragon wrote:
Templayer wrote:I agree with all the people previously mentioned in this post. You seem to be the only one who perceives the NWC dungeon as a flaw. I see it as a nifty Easter egg. Removing stuff there would be a disrespect to the original developers, as it stands as a tribute to them.

And now let's see if people find the secret Merge dungeon with Bug Catchers and such, and the treasures that lie within! :P :D :D

That as well as they show us how was NWC doing at those specific parts of the time those games were made, thus yeah ... and heck, having these in might give us bonus points in case we'd have to stand in the court as well if you ask me.

Was that thing made in the 1st place though? :devious:

The question should be: "Would Rodril tell us in the first place if it was?" :D :D :D
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby Templayer » Oct 26 2019, 17:03

Arch-vile wrote:Hello all.

I found one problem. Obelisks 3 and 4 (MM8) will be lost from automatic notes when you visit the Escaton. This quest cannot then be completed.

https://ibb.co/FbzQ12L
https://ibb.co/cCxDftK
https://ibb.co/3YS0XTV

Don't worry, Rodril will probably eventually (swamped with work and real life currently) give you console commands to fix the quest.
He did that multiple times in the past. qbits something was the command to change quest states and whatever.
Added to the Bug Tracker. You have also been added to the Bug Catchers section on the Credits Tracker (the main Tracker has a lot of stuff, the link is in my signature).

Phobos wrote:A cosmetic bug: When you promote a Minotaur to a Lich, the correct paper-doll appears but there is the cyan-red error sign on top of it.

About Hirelings: 1) Explorer doesn't seem to stack properly with the other hirelings that reduce boat travel times and stable travel times. Explorer is supposed to reduce all travel times one day further even if you already have a Horseman, a Navigator or a Sailor with you. 2) In general, when counting bonuses, two copies of the same hireling are supposed to be calculated just once, but two hirelings with a similar effect are meant to stack. Ex: Two Instructors should not give +30 to Learning but an Instructor and a Teacher should give +25; a Chimney Sweep and a Fool should boost luck by a total amount of 25; and two Spell Masters aren't meant to stack. 3) By the way, are the rest of the hirelings meant to be included at some point? Like Bard, Duper and Pirate? Or is the effect involving reputation hard to implement?

The AI of the Darkmoor guards (the Magi) seems to be wrong somehow. They flee at the sight of the party even though they are marked on the map as friendly.

Added to the Bug Tracker.

alekssandros wrote:I'm actually getting this error (NO CRASH) when I drink Divine Trasncendance and nothing happens. I'm actually level boosted with a magic well from Kriegspire Town. I guess maybe is that.

Image

Added to the Bug Tracker.

orzie wrote:Again, a handful of reports on the MM6 section.

    1. Nicolai Disappearance Bug: the message doesn't fit the text bar, and appears regardless of the party resting or being awake (I got it while being engaged in a turn-based fight, but the message classically says that Nicolai fled while I was resting), as if there is some kind of in-game elapsed timer. Interestingly, reloading game starts this "timer" again, so you can "postpone" the disappearance of Nicolai for a little while.

    2. Winter Circus tent names: in Bootleg Bay, the names of the tents are all messed up except one with the Accuracy test correctly named "Circus (Winter)". The main tent doesn't have a name, even. This is also visible for tents on the location map.

    4. Some of the quest descriptions may have punctuation (absent dot in the end) different from others.

    5. In the same Circus of Bootleg Bay, I had 115 Luck (boosted by white and black potions of Luck, if that matters) and playing the Luck game sometimes shows inconsistency between the awarded prize and text message. In particular, sometimes I won lodestones, but got the message assigned for harpy feathers. Sometimes, however, the messages are correctly displayed for lodestones and harpy feathers altogether. Getting four-leaf clovers works fine anytime.

    6. In Blackshire, the shrine is still called Shrine of Magic (with the Seer also addressing it as that), but there is no such stat as Magic Resistance anymore. The shrine is active in December and provides +10 Fire Resistance, displaying the message "+10 Magic".

    7. It is possible to open the Rest dialogue while trying to walk over water and spamming R. When Water Breathing potion is used, the character actually can rest and heal, if the potion lasts for enough time (maybe, it's even logical since it's called Water Breathing in MM6). When the potion effect wears off, further rest can easily kill the party if it waits for too long.

Added to the Bug Tracker.
Last edited by Templayer on Oct 26 2019, 17:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby Templayer » Oct 26 2019, 17:12

orzie wrote:No one needs a Fly scroll. The NWC Dungeon is reachable with simple mouse look+clicking.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby Thonkerton » Oct 26 2019, 19:34

Templayer wrote:
orzie wrote:No one needs a Fly scroll. The NWC Dungeon is reachable with simple mouse look+clicking.

Added to the Bug Tracker.

Arguably not a bug as it's in the vanilla game and doesn't require mouselook either, just looking up and jumping while pressing space works. It's possible the Fly scroll one can find is meant for the Expert Air Magic trainer that is only accessible using Fly, though nobody can really say as it's not really labeled for any purpose.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby Templayer » Oct 27 2019, 10:39

Thonkerton wrote:
Templayer wrote:
orzie wrote:No one needs a Fly scroll. The NWC Dungeon is reachable with simple mouse look+clicking.

Added to the Bug Tracker.

Arguably not a bug as it's in the vanilla game and doesn't require mouselook either, just looking up and jumping while pressing space works. It's possible the Fly scroll one can find is meant for the Expert Air Magic trainer that is only accessible using Fly, though nobody can really say as it's not really labeled for any purpose.

This is only a theory, but I am somewhat sure that such exploit wasn't planned by the devs.
It is, as you have said, hard to tell if the secret fly scroll was meant for the secret dungeon or to reach the expert air magic trainer.

If that gets fixed, then you will have to do the parkour method I saw on youtube, which was absolutely hilarious. :D :D :D
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby raekuul » Oct 27 2019, 13:09

Templayer wrote:
Thonkerton wrote:
Templayer wrote:Added to the Bug Tracker.

Arguably not a bug as it's in the vanilla game and doesn't require mouselook either, just looking up and jumping while pressing space works. It's possible the Fly scroll one can find is meant for the Expert Air Magic trainer that is only accessible using Fly, though nobody can really say as it's not really labeled for any purpose.

This is only a theory, but I am somewhat sure that such exploit wasn't planned by the devs.
It is, as you have said, hard to tell if the secret fly scroll was meant for the secret dungeon or to reach the expert air magic trainer.

If that gets fixed, then you will have to do the parkour method I saw on youtube, which was absolutely hilarious. :D :D :D

As I insinuated-without-outright-saying earlier, the plane you have to click on to pass within to Dragonsand is smaller somehow in Merge compared to in MM6. If you don't know the right place to click, you do have to be airborne to get it (and you have to actually click) - in 6, you could do it entirely with the keyboard (though you would need to do an X Jump). I'll put together a video demonstrating this in a bit.

Here's a video demonstrating it in both games.
Last edited by raekuul on Oct 27 2019, 13:43, edited 4 times in total.
You need to install the base mod first, and then install the latest GrayFace patch on top of that.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby chiyolate » Oct 27 2019, 16:53

I use the Fly scroll to read the obelisk... :D

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby raekuul » Oct 27 2019, 17:36

I try to save that fly scroll for when I hit Blackshire, to be honest, but that doesn't work quite so cleanly in Merge since chest trap damage is applied instantly in the MM8 engine as opposed to MM6's "when the animation finishes"
You need to install the base mod first, and then install the latest GrayFace patch on top of that.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby orzie » Oct 27 2019, 18:36

There is also a rather easy-to-catch opportunity to get stuck forever between the corner of the Buccaneers' Lair and a nearby tree in an unsuccessful attempt to jump while desperately pressing Use key trying to get to the NWC dungeon.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby Templayer » Oct 28 2019, 8:33

orzie wrote:There is also a rather easy-to-catch opportunity to get stuck forever between the corner of the Buccaneers' Lair and a nearby tree in an unsuccessful attempt to jump while desperately pressing Use key trying to get to the NWC dungeon.

Added to the Bug Tracker.
There has been quite an effort going on between GrayFace and Rodril trying to get themselves rid of collision bugs (pretty much all of them are in MM6. As in the ones that weren't in vanilla but exist now due to being put into a newer engine version of MM8).
GF fixed a lot of them globally with a GrayFace Patch update, and then there is a need of individual fixes.

@All
There is a standalone table in the Bug Tracker for Collision Bugs so that they might be fixed. Adding newly found ones with coordinates into that would be very appreciated.
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby Templayer » Oct 28 2019, 8:47

chiyolate wrote:I use the Fly scroll to read the obelisk... :D

:D :D
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby chiyolate » Oct 28 2019, 9:27

Templayer wrote:
chiyolate wrote:I use the Fly scroll to read the obelisk... :D

:D :D

I remember a long time ago I climbed that mountain (on my Pentium 133, my first ever PC), it took so long because it was a slow CPU, after minutes of pressing forward to climb that mountain, I plunge immediately and read the obelisk, then realized I was stuck in there and can't get out lol...
Today, I tried climbing again with my current PC (i5 gen 3 CPU) it took only a few seconds to climb to the top.. :D

I also remember using the door bug, where you just stand in front of a locked door (any door, including Tomb of VARN, and MM7), save the game, then load the game while running forward, because of the slow CPU to render the door, I always able to get through without doing all the quest.. lol.
In Lord Markham's manor, if I get through without opening the door (using the bug), I can get inside without being attacked.. hahah good ol days...


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