Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 19.04.2020]

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Oct 4 2019, 20:41

Butcer wrote:
Butcer wrote:Can somebody please tell me how do i talk to my npc hirlings, when i click the head icon i get the pictures of them but how do i talk to them?

NEVERMIND GOT IT

Thank the Ancients because I wouldn't know how due to missing details. Glad you managed to get this sorted out. :)
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby Xfing » Oct 4 2019, 20:49

SpectralDragon wrote:
As for this, my fellow people, it's still going and it's currently a tie, so everything is still up in the air. I'm all glad to receive more feedback on what you all wish to see come to the mod/game first. :)


Alright look. The Gold Dragon visuals can be used for hireling dragons from MM8 or random hireling dragons if such a thing gets implemented (I'm thinking Jadame, since only there can you talk to dragons as if they're NPCs). Anyway, it's something that is very suitable for the base game, whereas the troll lich is probably THE most outlandish class/race combo that will only be available in the Unlocker and that only Unlocker enthusiasts will enjoy. Not to mention the suspension of disbelief and lore friendliness part.

I'm thinking maybe we could leave Ithilgore and Flamdring green and red respectively and make Brimstone and Duroth gold and black respectively? Just so you have more black dragons than just your wee familiar from the Nighon quest.
Last edited by Xfing on Oct 4 2019, 20:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Oct 4 2019, 21:05

Xfing wrote:Alright look. The Gold Dragon visuals can be used for hireling dragons from MM8 or random hireling dragons if such a thing gets implemented (I'm thinking Jadame, since only there can you talk to dragons as if they're NPCs). Anyway, it's something that is very suitable for the base game, whereas the troll lich is probably THE most outlandish class/race combo that will only be available in the Unlocker and that only Unlocker enthusiasts will enjoy. Not to mention the suspension of disbelief and lore friendliness part.

I'm thinking maybe we could leave Ithilgore and Flamdring green and red respectively and make Brimstone and Duroth gold and black respectively? Just so you have more black dragons than just your wee familiar from the Nighon quest.

I know, I just wish to know how many people here would be the ones that would enjoy outlandish combos (you already argued against Dracoliches, Vampire and Zombie Liches with those same points, let's not go down this old road again, PLEASE!) like that (I admit, I'd gladly test a Troll Lich if not play as one myself just so that I can have some fun I'd otherwise never have in those games, same with Dracoliches and Zombie Liches (the 2nd mainly due to voicework alone). Besides, the Unlocker is where lore breaking goes up to 11 and I've already snarled in lore's face by making a helmet compatible to a Minotaur, so of course I wouldn't be lore-friendly ... as if that would be a problem to anyone that decides to use the Unlocker just so they can mess with the game! :devious: ) and with Templayer potentially gone for good it's pretty clear that Gold Dragon would be next anyways. What use is an Unlocker-only (which the Dracolich IS!!) character when the one that made it is gone in the 1st place anyways?

Also, funny you mentioned NPCs, since I've made NPC images for Unlocker-only classes as well, which means that they can potentially show up as hirelings even without the Unlocker, Rodril bless it. :tongue: I dare you to imagine what would happen if you'd find an Undead Ghost Dragon or a Dracolich hireling without having the Unlocker in. Let me tell you personally, I'd take both into my party without any problems, especially Undead (non-Zombie-condition Zombie) Ghost Dragon! :D

Rodril wrote: :gong:

What do you think about that, Flamdring and Duroth the Eternal being swapped to their gold (former) + black (latter) versions of themselves and Ghost Dragon being the only "zombified" character to roll a chance to show up as a random Undead-subraced hireling (while other Zombies just remain Zombies with Zombie condition as well) in the base mod/Merge? We do get to meet at least 2 benign ghosts in MM6 after all ... ;)
Last edited by SpectralDragon on Oct 4 2019, 21:19, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby Xfing » Oct 4 2019, 21:56

SpectralDragon wrote:I know, I just wish to know how many people here would be the ones that would enjoy outlandish combos (you already argued against Dracoliches, Vampire and Zombie Liches with those same points, let's not go down this old road again, PLEASE!) like that


It's simply a matter of prioritizing. It's only fair that content for the base game, to be enjoyed by everyone, should probably come first. Why is this such a contentious issue anyway? It's not like you have to choose between the two, you know, you'll do the one that's not chosen a bit later anyway.

That said, it's really your call and no one else's what you choose to make first. If you really feel inspiration for that troll lich right now, go for it. Those graphics don't make themselves, so everyone will be happy regardless of what you make next.
Last edited by Xfing on Oct 4 2019, 22:17, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby Butcer » Oct 4 2019, 22:12

Can you remove skill restrictions on classes?

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby raekuul » Oct 4 2019, 22:32

The end user can set up whatever skill limits they want for whichever classes they want by editing Data\Tables\Class Skills.txt
You need to install the base mod first, and then install the latest GrayFace patch on top of that.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Oct 4 2019, 22:37

Xfing wrote:It's simply a matter of prioritizing. It's only fair that content for the base game, to be enjoyed by everyone, should probably come first. Why is this such a contentious issue anyway? It's not like you have to choose between the two, you know, you'll do the one that's not chosen a bit later anyway.

That said, it's really your call and no one else's what you choose to make first. If you really feel inspiration for that troll lich right now, go for it. Those graphics don't make themselves, so everyone will be happy regardless of what you make next.

Both priorities and time, actually. I take one week at the very least to make a playable character (paperdoll + expressions) and then it needs to go through the process of being ported into the game itself as a test (which Troll Zombie wasn't done as a test because Jamesx is missing and I don't know anyone else that would test it for the game so that any kinks would be removed before being fully implemented :( ) before Rodril adds it in (if he chooses) in a monthly update and I've had to deal with quite a lot of impatient people before, thus I always ask the populace first before doing this. Besides, this also serves as a reminder to the people that their voices do matter and this mod in entirety is a creation of teamwork, yes? :)
So let's keep the "teamwork" bit of it if you ask me. ;)
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby Butcer » Oct 4 2019, 23:02

raekuul wrote:The end user can set up whatever skill limits they want for whichever classes they want by editing Data\Tables\Class Skills.txt

Thanks got it :tsup: Op party here i come

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby Xfing » Oct 4 2019, 23:05

SpectralDragon wrote: Besides, this also serves as a reminder to the people that their voices do matter and this mod in entirety is a creation of teamwork, yes? :)
So let's keep the "teamwork" bit of it if you ask me. ;)


Sure, if you put it that way. Definitely a good point. Then again, despite the number of people involved in helping, the vast majority of players are just that, passive receivers. Unless you mean just for those who are helping to vote, in that case the votes are being cast I guess :P

Butcer wrote:Thanks got it :tsup: Op party here i come


Damn, I'm always impressed by how people can enjoy playing that way. I personally would feel like cheating :D

That's why I like feeling designer restrictions. Then when I beat the game, I at least know it was beaten with the tools that the devs intended me to have. That's kinda why I would prefer an officially sanctioned version of the racial skills, just so I don't feel like I'm arbitrarily giving myself an advantage.
Last edited by Xfing on Oct 4 2019, 23:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Oct 5 2019, 0:06

Xfing wrote:Sure, if you put it that way. Definitely a good point. Then again, despite the number of people involved in helping, the vast majority of players are just that, passive receivers. Unless you mean just for those who are helping to vote, in that case the votes are being cast I guess :P

Damn, I'm always impressed by how people can enjoy playing that way. I personally would feel like cheating :D

That's why I like feeling designer restrictions. Then when I beat the game, I at least know it was beaten with the tools that the devs intended me to have. That's kinda why I would prefer an officially sanctioned version of the racial skills, just so I don't feel like I'm arbitrarily giving myself an advantage.

Both that and passive receivers, since I can imagine even passive receivers enjoy little things like that. Speaking of receiving, how is that alternative Tor's Dragon Familiar quest side going on (one with the Gold Dragon for the Light side parties)? Curious ... and what do you think about making different Dragon Eggs as well?

Let's say that it feels like tripping on mushrooms, only it's on power. At least that's how I see it. :tongue: I like the all-balanced settings myself, but I'm not afraid to go into extremes just for challenge ... and honestly I only hope that some racial classes (Minotaurs?) get some buffs, since I always felt like they're the weakest in vanilla game. Others, well, I honestly have no comment about. ^^; :D
Last edited by SpectralDragon on Oct 5 2019, 0:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby Phobos » Oct 5 2019, 8:56

DaveHer wrote:IMAGE

That interface looks really good! Nice work!

I also think that a gold dragon would be really nice to have. It always felt like a shame that half of the MM8 dragons were just copies of each other.
Last edited by Phobos on Oct 5 2019, 8:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Oct 5 2019, 10:23

Hopefully I don˙t disappoint, Phobos and other people that wish for a Gold Dragon.
Image
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby DaveHer » Oct 5 2019, 10:39

Phobos wrote:
DaveHer wrote:IMAGE

That interface looks really good! Nice work!
Thank you.
David

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby Xfing » Oct 5 2019, 11:01

SpectralDragon wrote:Speaking of receiving, how is that alternative Tor's Dragon Familiar quest side going on (one with the Gold Dragon for the Light side parties)? Curious ...


Haven't started on that either, but don't worry. Writing the dialogue will take me like 15 mins tops when I get around to it, so it's definitely not going to be the bottleneck. Got one other thing to take care of right now, but I remember about this.


and what do you think about making different Dragon Eggs as well?


Sure, why not? Thinking now they could look the same (as the Dragon Eggs that we have now), but have different names, say Green Dragon Egg etc. If we wanted, we could even put mild colored tints on them to visually hint what type of dragon they contain. And then we could make Tor's quest repeatable after the first completion (both the light and dark path) as a means to get more Dragon NPCs.

I actually really like this idea. Getting dragons is supposed to be prohibitive, and just talking to Garotte Gorge dragons and relying on probabilities would be too easy of a way to get dragon hirelings. Having to pick up eggs from the Land of the Giants dragon cave, which could have for example 35%/35%/15%/15% chances of coming in particular colors would definitely add a fun factor to revisiting those caves.

Let's say that it feels like tripping on mushrooms, only it's on power. At least that's how I see it. :tongue: I like the all-balanced settings myself, but I'm not afraid to go into extremes just for challenge ... and honestly I only hope that some racial classes (Minotaurs?) get some buffs, since I always felt like they're the weakest in vanilla game. Others, well, I honestly have no comment about. ^^; :D


I agree with that. Not being able to wear headwear and boots is a definite disadvantage for minos, that's why even in my first draft I thought they should receive something more as compensation. It's only fair, I think. I think giving them +1 to Armsmaster and Perception would even things out nicely. Not sure about bodybuilding, then again I think they could afford +1, since they look like they should be at least sturdier than humans, but never actually were as a class in MM8. Axe bonuses go without saying. What do you think?

SpectralDragon wrote:gold dragon pic


Very tasteful, beautiful! Is it just me though, or does it still resemble the base green dragon more than your black dragon does the red one? With that one I honestly couldn't tell that it was based off another one, but here it's a bit more apparent. Perhaps even more horns or spines of some sort could remedy this? :P
Last edited by Xfing on Oct 5 2019, 11:03, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Oct 5 2019, 14:12

Xfing wrote:Haven't started on that either, but don't worry. Writing the dialogue will take me like 15 mins tops when I get around to it, so it's definitely not going to be the bottleneck. Got one other thing to take care of right now, but I remember about this.

Sure, why not? Thinking now they could look the same (as the Dragon Eggs that we have now), but have different names, say Green Dragon Egg etc. If we wanted, we could even put mild colored tints on them to visually hint what type of dragon they contain. And then we could make Tor's quest repeatable after the first completion (both the light and dark path) as a means to get more Dragon NPCs.

I actually really like this idea. Getting dragons is supposed to be prohibitive, and just talking to Garotte Gorge dragons and relying on probabilities would be too easy of a way to get dragon hirelings. Having to pick up eggs from the Land of the Giants dragon cave, which could have for example 35%/35%/15%/15% chances of coming in particular colors would definitely add a fun factor to revisiting those caves.

I agree with that. Not being able to wear headwear and boots is a definite disadvantage for minos, that's why even in my first draft I thought they should receive something more as compensation. It's only fair, I think. I think giving them +1 to Armsmaster and Perception would even things out nicely. Not sure about bodybuilding, then again I think they could afford +1, since they look like they should be at least sturdier than humans, but never actually were as a class in MM8. Axe bonuses go without saying. What do you think?

Very tasteful, beautiful! Is it just me though, or does it still resemble the base green dragon more than your black dragon does the red one? With that one I honestly couldn't tell that it was based off another one, but here it's a bit more apparent. Perhaps even more horns or spines of some sort could remedy this? :P

Ok, good! :D

That's actually why I wish to do more Dragon Eggs, so that they don't look the same at all, since I can imagine that they can show what type of dragon they contain via mild tints and all due to how they develop (and both green and gold dragons are said to breathe sulphur in Heroes 3, which would definitely cause eggs to be different ;) ) and as for repeatable Tor's quest ... I kind of don't like it, since then we could get dragons ad infinitum once our party/ies is/are strong enough. ^^; I do like the probability playing as well, only question is:
Should we use Dragon Eggs from MM7 or Dragon Leader's Egg from MM8 as a base? (thinking)

I agree with this, +1 to Armsmaster, Perception, Body Building (not just because of how they look like, but also kind as a homage to the original Minotaur of Greek mythology (even though Dragons are still buffer, but that's to be expected). Thing apparently put up one hell of a fight against Theseus) and Axe, if Axe doesn't receive any extra bonuses.

Yes, it does, and sadly I cannot do much to avert this, since its natural coloration kind of gives it away. ^^; I can only give it spiked nostrils and elongated fangs because I REALLY don't wish to make the entire "nestled horns/spikes" thing again and yes, Gold Dragon has EVEN MORE nestled spikes than Black Dragon has horns. :S :S
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby Xfing » Oct 5 2019, 15:01

SpectralDragon wrote: as for repeatable Tor's quest ... I kind of don't like it, since then we could get dragons ad infinitum once our party/ies is/are strong enough. ^^;


You get four dragons in MM8 as it is, another one guaranteed from the Tor quest, so having too many dragons too easily is moot - you've already got access to as many as your party can hold anyway. Also, having this quest impossible to repeat would lock the party out of having both the gold and the black dragon available. Not sure if this sort of permanent choice is necessary.

We could restrict getting new pet dragons behind some sort of wall that would prevent spamming. For example having to pay a large sum in gold per dragon hatched? That would be the simplest way, and a good deterrent. Say, 1M gold per dragon. That would definitely make people want to think twice before getting one. As for selection, the first egg from the 1st character in the inventory would be automatically chosen, so the party can actually influence which dragon they'll be getting.

Should we use Dragon Eggs from MM7 or Dragon Leader's Egg from MM8 as a base? (thinking)


Why not one for the green and gold dragons and the other for red/black? That could work too.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Oct 5 2019, 15:27

Xfing wrote:You get four dragons in MM8 as it is, another one guaranteed from the Tor quest, so having too many dragons too easily is moot - you've already got access to as many as your party can hold anyway. Also, having this quest impossible to repeat would lock the party out of having both the gold and the black dragon available. Not sure if this sort of permanent choice is necessary.

We could restrict getting new pet dragons behind some sort of wall that would prevent spamming. For example having to pay a large sum in gold per dragon hatched? That would be the simplest way, and a good deterrent. Say, 1M gold per dragon. That would definitely make people want to think twice before getting one. As for selection, the first egg from the 1st character in the inventory would be automatically chosen, so the party can actually influence which dragon they'll be getting.

Why not one for the green and gold dragons and the other for red/black? That could work too.

Exactly, thus I don't like the "repeatable Dragon Familiar quest" thing and especially if Brimstone will become a Gold Dragon while Duroth the Eternal would become a Black one. ^^; As for the wall that would stop people from abusing said quest, I actually have another idea (even if it would still require the Adventurer's Inn to be able to hold unlimited amount of hirelings): it's not just the gold, it's the reputation as well. If reputation would work in MMMerge the same way it does in MM6, then only ones with Bad- reputations as well as gold would be able to get another dragon and each new dragon hatched would cause a hit to their overall reputation by either one or even more full categories (like going from Respectable to Vile). Just my ideas though ... but I do support said dragon choice influence from the 1st character as well. :tsup:

MM7 Dragon Eggs are pretty dinky and less detailed compared to MM8 ones and in order to make sure people wouldn't instantly know which dragon would they be getting from each egg I'm thinking on suiting with one of the said sort. Unless for general dragons we use MM7 ones while MM8 remains for the Dragon Slayer/Dragon alliance quest. (thinking)

That aside, I hope you understand why I don't wish to do "nestled spikes" on the Gold Dragon unlike what its Heroes 3 sprite shows. ^^;
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby Xfing » Oct 5 2019, 17:26

As for reputation in MM6, the system was pretty cool and extensive, but it had its problems too, such as the reputation inevitably dropping over time and being able to raise it back only by doing quests. Meaning, you could never keep your Saintly reputation forever, no matter what you did. I think I actually prefer the MM7 reputation system: you still have to perform quests to raise it, but at the very least it keeps track separately for each area and doesn't decrease over time. MM8 was clearly supposed to keep MM7's system, but apparently it didn't work (the quests didn't really raise your rep).

Not sure why bad rep should be a pre-requisite for getting dragons, dragons don't necessarily need to be evil after all. Also, bad rep can be immediately fixed by donating to a temple anyway. Oh, speaking of reputation: perhaps it would be nice to code an exception that Dark Path characters get an unfixable -50 (which I believe equates to the lowest category in MM7 and 8) at Bracada and Celeste and vice versa? Just a thought.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby Anubis » Oct 5 2019, 19:31

As for reputation in MM6, the system was pretty cool and extensive, but it had its problems too, such as the reputation inevitably dropping over time and being able to raise it back only by doing quests. Meaning, you could never keep your Saintly reputation forever, no matter what you did.

You can increase your reputation by doing bounties from the Sorpigal/Mist/Silver Cove townhalls. I think rep gain is 1% of the gold offered for the bounty.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Oct 5 2019, 20:28

You're talking to someone that is doing Dark side promotion quest/s for Druids (Warlock), thus the necessary bad rep in my book, Xfing. But in the end, that's just my opinion and I'll leave it all to GrayFace and Rodril.

Now I'm more worried about the Gold Dragon one. Thoughts? Any suggestions on how to make him better without using the INCREDIBLY ANNOYING "spike nesting" thing that I already used for the Black Dragon?
Since if not then I'll just add double nose spikes and be done with it because I don't wish to make him too tacky after all. Easier on the eyes for ones that play and for me to get this over with without using months to be done on it. ^^;
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