Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 22.09.2019]

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby GrayFace » Jun 25 2019, 2:51

Xfing wrote:What do you think about a minimized version of this approach? Say, two +1 bonuses and two -1 penalties per race and that's it? That way the impact would be rather small, but at least it would be testable and based on the players' feedback we could then take it further if it was warmly received. Example: Elves would get +1 to Bow and Meditation, but -1 to Mace and Bodybuilding, and that's it. The analogous would be done for the other race, just with other skill pairs.

What I saw in your table is elves getting reduced Armsmaster and that's an extraordinary blow to any fighters. -1 Mace is a blow of similar magnitude to Paladins. Definitely not something to include in vanilla mod.

Xfing wrote: Like I said before, I also like this idea a lot. In fact, I even have one idea already, had it for some time in fact. The Pirate - representing Regnan pirates of course.

That's a new class rather than a race-class combination and with them the problem is promotions. There's unused druid circle item waiting to be used in one promotion quest, other quest may include something in dragon hunters castle.
I was talking about unique Minotaur Priest, Minotaur Knight, quite possibly Minotaur Ranger (yes, on MM7 continent), variations of trolls, vampires and dark elves.

SpectralDragon wrote:
GrayFace wrote:The game only uses WAVs. You just downgraded their quality for no reason by converting to MP3.

Is there a difference between standard 180 kHz mp3 files and what Templayer did though, which is 320 kHz .mp3? Legit curious just in case this mess with new voice files can be made even better than how it is nowadays.

These aren't kHz, they're kbits/second. It's like jpeg quality. The lower, the more some frequencies are "blurred out". MP3s always introduces some "blur". As opposed to frequency, which is like pixel density with 44 kHz and 48 kHz being basically retina, while 88.2 kHz, 98 kHz and even 192 kHz are useful during creation of music and sound.

SpectralDragon wrote:-> Black Dragon (optionally already swapping the Red Dragon placeholder for the Warlock promotion quest with itself)

Portrait quality isn't enough to replace the promotion quest dragon by default.

Roticet wrote:Well, why not change the race classes into strictly races and open up classes to all. That's more of what NWC wanted with MM8, but couldn't implement due to time constraints. So, one could argue that's keeping with the spirit of the game. It is more restrictive than Templayer's unlocker, but could be easily implemented. Though dragons should be restricted to dragons without Temp's unlocker.

Did NWC say it was their intention? If not, then I'm sure it wasn't. What they did works great and much better than MM7's race+class that are all the same.
My patches: MM6 MM7 MM8. MMExtension. Tools. Also, I love Knytt Stories and Knytt Underground. I'm also known as sergroj.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Xfing » Jun 25 2019, 4:41

GrayFace wrote:What I saw in your table is elves getting reduced Armsmaster and that's an extraordinary blow to any fighters. -1 Mace is a blow of similar magnitude to Paladins. Definitely not something to include in vanilla mod.


That was just a first draft, not really insisting on the armsmaster thing. As for the mace and paladins - well that one was actually deliberate. Elves would make poorer paladins, encouraging the player to choose one of the other races for the class. Then again, this could also be iterated upon, so that no single class is ever particularly hurt. But that would restrict the pool of skills to choose from for boosting or penalizing to just the miscellaneous skills, which might make it tricky to choose sensible combinations. In the end I still feel some class combined with an unlucky race would get penalized one way or another, it's just unavoidable with this sort of design.

That's a new class rather than a race-class combination and with them the problem is promotions. There's unused druid circle item waiting to be used in one promotion quest, other quest may include something in dragon hunters castle.
I was talking about unique Minotaur Priest, Minotaur Knight, quite possibly Minotaur Ranger (yes, on MM7 continent), variations of trolls, vampires and dark elves.


I thought that you actually meant all-new MM8-style race/classes, the way you worded it earlier, while you in fact meant just a larger number of unlocked class/race combos. The ones you proposed wouldn't be bad to have at all. But then there's the problem that you yourself noticed:

GrayFace wrote:Did NWC say it was their intention? If not, then I'm sure it wasn't. What they did works great and much better than MM7's race+class that are all the same.


They indeed are all the same, and even adding minos, vamps or dark elves to the selectable race pool will not change that fact if nothing is done. Having generic racial skill boosts and penalties would at least somewhat alleviate this problem, but there is only one other way to do it that I can think of (not sure if it's what you were proposing in the first place - if it is, good thinking!), but some race/class combos could be designed from scratch and hardcoded/made unique holistically. Say, the mino ranger that you suggested. They could for example keep the ranger's core skills like GM axe and expert in all schools of magic, but also all or some of the miscellaneous skills of the mino like master disarm, bodybuilding, armsmaster. Is that what you had in mind? If it is, it might be an even better idea than assigning flat bonuses and penalties to races.
Last edited by Xfing on Jun 25 2019, 4:49, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby justl » Jun 25 2019, 4:55

after all the cunundrum about zombies/dragons/liches etc. it would be good, when things calm down a bit, and all the talented people could help with the basic contents of the game - like repainting/redolling - or even making a how to for the not so talented ones to help. the community will sure be thankful for that too (since only ~5 people were making the last 10 pages full in the forum with that)

i guess with that even rodril could be convinced to take your efforts in one of the following updates into the game.
dont let the ideas get a way of it self, considering they will be automatically added, cause you said so.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Roticet » Jun 25 2019, 5:22

GrayFace wrote:
Xfing wrote:What do you think about a minimized version of this approach? Say, two +1 bonuses and two -1 penalties per race and that's it? That way the impact would be rather small, but at least it would be testable and based on the players' feedback we could then take it further if it was warmly received. Example: Elves would get +1 to Bow and Meditation, but -1 to Mace and Bodybuilding, and that's it. The analogous would be done for the other race, just with other skill pairs.

What I saw in your table is elves getting reduced Armsmaster and that's an extraordinary blow to any fighters. -1 Mace is a blow of similar magnitude to Paladins. Definitely not something to include in vanilla mod.

Xfing wrote: Like I said before, I also like this idea a lot. In fact, I even have one idea already, had it for some time in fact. The Pirate - representing Regnan pirates of course.

That's a new class rather than a race-class combination and with them the problem is promotions. There's unused druid circle item waiting to be used in one promotion quest, other quest may include something in dragon hunters castle.
I was talking about unique Minotaur Priest, Minotaur Knight, quite possibly Minotaur Ranger (yes, on MM7 continent), variations of trolls, vampires and dark elves.

SpectralDragon wrote:
GrayFace wrote:The game only uses WAVs. You just downgraded their quality for no reason by converting to MP3.

Is there a difference between standard 180 kHz mp3 files and what Templayer did though, which is 320 kHz .mp3? Legit curious just in case this mess with new voice files can be made even better than how it is nowadays.

These aren't kHz, they're kbits/second. It's like jpeg quality. The lower, the more some frequencies are "blurred out". MP3s always introduces some "blur". As opposed to frequency, which is like pixel density with 44 kHz and 48 kHz being basically retina, while 88.2 kHz, 98 kHz and even 192 kHz are useful during creation of music and sound.

SpectralDragon wrote:-> Black Dragon (optionally already swapping the Red Dragon placeholder for the Warlock promotion quest with itself)

Portrait quality isn't enough to replace the promotion quest dragon by default.

Roticet wrote:Well, why not change the race classes into strictly races and open up classes to all. That's more of what NWC wanted with MM8, but couldn't implement due to time constraints. So, one could argue that's keeping with the spirit of the game. It is more restrictive than Templayer's unlocker, but could be easily implemented. Though dragons should be restricted to dragons without Temp's unlocker.

Did NWC say it was their intention? If not, then I'm sure it wasn't. What they did works great and much better than MM7's race+class that are all the same.



There have been a few interviews where JVC talks about 3do going through financial trouble and mm8 was rushed some. So they made some cuts to push 8 out faster. One of those cuts was making race and class separate. Another was that druid circlet. And then they got rushed into pushing 9 out early. When I get into work I will look for it and link it. But I'm pretty positive that the race/class thing was something that was modified to push the game out faster.

And I disagree that the race class system works in mm8. It's one of the things that's irked me the most. Feels like they gimped the races and let humans get classes and thats it. I dont like that. I dont see any reason a troll or minotaur couldn't become a knight or something
Last edited by Roticet on Jun 25 2019, 6:09, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Templayer » Jun 25 2019, 6:00

GrayFace wrote:
Xfing wrote: Like I said before, I also like this idea a lot. In fact, I even have one idea already, had it for some time in fact. The Pirate - representing Regnan pirates of course.

That's a new class rather than a race-class combination and with them the problem is promotions. There's unused druid circle item waiting to be used in one promotion quest, other quest may include something in dragon hunters castle.
I was talking about unique Minotaur Priest, Minotaur Knight, quite possibly Minotaur Ranger (yes, on MM7 continent), variations of trolls, vampires and dark elves.

SpectralDragon wrote:
GrayFace wrote:The game only uses WAVs. You just downgraded their quality for no reason by converting to MP3.

Is there a difference between standard 180 kHz mp3 files and what Templayer did though, which is 320 kHz .mp3? Legit curious just in case this mess with new voice files can be made even better than how it is nowadays.

These aren't kHz, they're kbits/second. It's like jpeg quality. The lower, the more some frequencies are "blurred out". MP3s always introduces some "blur". As opposed to frequency, which is like pixel density with 44 kHz and 48 kHz being basically retina, while 88.2 kHz, 98 kHz and even 192 kHz are useful during creation of music and sound.

Roticet wrote:Well, why not change the race classes into strictly races and open up classes to all. That's more of what NWC wanted with MM8, but couldn't implement due to time constraints. So, one could argue that's keeping with the spirit of the game. It is more restrictive than Templayer's unlocker, but could be easily implemented. Though dragons should be restricted to dragons without Temp's unlocker.

Did NWC say it was their intention? If not, then I'm sure it wasn't. What they did works great and much better than MM7's race+class that are all the same.

1. Oh no, but he hates those combinations! Those are crazy and have to be restricted! :P
2. ACTUALLY I DIDN'T USE MP3. Please read more posts. I made wavs. It's on the previous page. Please read it. The whole mp3 debacle is misinformation! Bah! Spectral and Jamesx didn't try to put my "source" files into the game directly before, instead opting to convert them to various proprietary formats, yesterday they just tried putting it in-game as they were and it worked. I am still happy they implemented them, though, even if not as an update yet.
3. Doesn't my racial skills modification do exactly that? Replace the racial classes with racial skills bound to the race?
MMMerge Tracker (= Info + Paint Tracker + Bug Tracker + Missing Features + Suggestions):
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Anybody can view or suggest edits.

My youtube retro channel: www.youtube.com/Templayer

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Xfing » Jun 25 2019, 7:29

Templayer wrote:1. Oh no, but he hates those combinations! Those are crazy and have to be restricted! :P


That's what you get for blocking me. You don't even get to find out that it's the complete opposite :D

Xfing wrote:I thought that you actually meant all-new MM8-style race/classes, the way you worded it earlier, while you in fact meant just a larger number of unlocked class/race combos. The ones you proposed wouldn't be bad to have at all.
Last edited by Xfing on Jun 25 2019, 7:35, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Jun 25 2019, 8:36

GrayFace wrote:These aren't kHz, they're kbits/second. It's like jpeg quality. The lower, the more some frequencies are "blurred out". MP3s always introduces some "blur". As opposed to frequency, which is like pixel density with 44 kHz and 48 kHz being basically retina, while 88.2 kHz, 98 kHz and even 192 kHz are useful during creation of music and sound.

I see and well, we all have been proven wrong. Templayer's .wavs are enough to be introduced into the game as they are.
:down: :down:
Templayer wrote:Guys. I just checked my files, including the one I have send everyone in the .7z - they are wavs, PCM, 1411.2 kbps (checked multiple of them), 44100 Hz.
I mean I do not remember <self-censorship>, but where the heck did that whole mp3 debacle come from? :D
Jamesx wrote:Also I tried a Templayer's source voices and it works in game correctly, so there is no need to convert something at all))) you can just bring them into a game as is

(facepalm) :D :D :oex:

:up: :up:
GrayFace wrote:
SpectralDragon wrote:-> Black Dragon (optionally already swapping the Red Dragon placeholder for the Warlock promotion quest with itself)

Portrait quality isn't enough to replace the promotion quest dragon by default.

I tried my best with this one. If it cannot replace the Dragon you get as a reward for completing the Warlock promotion quest in MM7-bit of this mod (which I've actually meant there, not vanilla MM7), then there's nothing that would make it useful in the game/mod. I made it like this so that it makes sense in the game-world (since how many Jadamean Dragons would try cross the sea/ocean separating Jadame from Antagarich?), but well, if this isn't enough, then I essentially wasted those weeks of making it work for nothing. But well, mistakes are unavoidable even if they take precious times of our lives, yes? (shrug) Just gotta take them, stay calm and move on and I'm very much a VERY NOVICE artist in the end. If you or any other person wish to take a shot of this, improve the quality to necessary levels, well ... by all means, go ahead. The best things for you are done by you and you alone after all and I've linked the base/source files in this thread after all. Question if you can convert them though without suffering any quality loss.
Last edited by SpectralDragon on Jun 25 2019, 8:48, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Xfing » Jun 25 2019, 10:03

SpectralDragon wrote:I tried my best with this one. If it cannot replace the Dragon you get as a reward for completing the Warlock promotion quest in MM7-bit of this mod (which I've actually meant there, not vanilla MM7), then there's nothing that would make it useful in the game/mod. I made it like this so that it makes sense in the game-world (since how many Jadamean Dragons would try cross the sea/ocean separating Jadame from Antagarich?)


I think this whole "Jadamean and Antagarich dragons being different" thing is only your headcanon to be honest. Or you're just overthinking things or unnecessarily bringing Homm3 into this. Out-of-universe they were probably just "dragons again" to the design team, except for the next game in line. Dragons as enemies in MM6, 7 and 8 are very, very similar in design and each can be considered a slightly more polished version of the previous game's (except that in MM8 you don't get colors on dragons, which could be considered a step backwards). Player character dragons are different of course, but that's probably nothing but artistic direction rather than some far-reaching lore considerations. That's what they got from the artists, and they rolled with it.

That said, I'd really like to see your black dragon in the game, hope it makes it in in some shape or form.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Jun 25 2019, 10:35

Xfing wrote:I think this whole "Jadamean and Antagarich dragons being different" thing is only your headcanon to be honest. Or you're just overthinking things or unnecessarily bringing Homm3 into this. Out-of-universe they were probably just "dragons again" to the design team, except for the next game in line. Dragons as enemies in MM6, 7 and 8 are very, very similar in design and each can be considered a slightly more polished version of the previous game's (except that in MM8 you don't get colors on dragons, which could be considered a step backwards). Player character dragons are different of course, but that's probably nothing but artistic direction rather than some far-reaching lore considerations. That's what they got from the artists, and they rolled with it.

That said, I'd really like to see your black dragon in the game, hope it makes it in in some shape or form.

Well, if it doesn't make it simply of what you say here, it just being "Oh great, another useless dragon PC from someone that clearly thinks way outside the box", then I wonder who will you blame for it except yourself. :disagree: I might be overthinking, yes, but that's exactly what I need in order to give myself reasons to even work on different Dragons for this game or mod to boot and not piss people off with this. People wished for more Dragon variants after all instead of just Brown + Red we have as only choices in games and well, where else can I get assets for them if not HoMM III, a game that is having crystal clear ties with MM7?? :|

Not to even mention it's common sense as well. Jadame and Antagarich (and Enroth) are all clearly ocean-separated continents (you don't see any traces of them on each individual world maps) from my knowledge, so of course Dragon evolution would go differently in each continent, thus making them look all different. You don't get to find Thunder Lizards and Wyrms in Antagarich OR Jadame for that reason after all and time constraints in making said games or not, gotta keep this in mind as well and let's not forget other factors that would stop Dragons from freely migrating from one continent to another, thus making them all different, mainly overhunting by Charles Quixote's Dragon Hunters and all events that happened on Antagarich before MM7 aka a subject of Heroes III that would cause mad swings of Dragon population overall. I might be an overthinker but a least I keep track on where exactly in game's lore/history these games are at. Without mentioning that Jadame is clearly a completely different land compared to Antagarich or Enroth because well, we obviously have Dark Elves and Wererats, beings that don't show up anywhere else in the lore of MM or Heroes games.

And even then, just ask yourself, would you want to have the same 2 Brown (Ithilgore and Brimstone) and Red (Flamdring, Duroth the Eternal) Dragons as only choices in the game/mod when it comes to hirelings/character choices, just like how we only have 2 Minotaur and 2 Troll variants when it comes to living ones to choose from, which makes sense in the 1st place, as they don't change as much as Dragons do between continents at all (only exception being cow-like Minotaur villagers in Balthazar Lair)? :|

Apologies if I went at you like this, but some anvils need to be dropped and I'm not allowing my weeks of work to go to waste simply because of people like you separating the game lores into different categories even if they're clearly connected with each other. For someone that claims that likes seeing this Dragon variant you're definitely making an effort of NOT wishing to see it inside the game/mod. :| :| :| In my vision that is. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I feel by your comment there.
Last edited by SpectralDragon on Jun 25 2019, 10:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Xfing » Jun 25 2019, 11:16

SpectralDragon wrote:
Xfing wrote:I think this whole "Jadamean and Antagarich dragons being different" thing is only your headcanon to be honest. Or you're just overthinking things or unnecessarily bringing Homm3 into this. Out-of-universe they were probably just "dragons again" to the design team, except for the next game in line. Dragons as enemies in MM6, 7 and 8 are very, very similar in design and each can be considered a slightly more polished version of the previous game's (except that in MM8 you don't get colors on dragons, which could be considered a step backwards). Player character dragons are different of course, but that's probably nothing but artistic direction rather than some far-reaching lore considerations. That's what they got from the artists, and they rolled with it.

That said, I'd really like to see your black dragon in the game, hope it makes it in in some shape or form.

Well, if it doesn't make it simply of what you say here, it just being "Oh great, another useless dragon PC from someone that clearly thinks way outside the box", then I wonder who will you blame for it except yourself. :disagree: I might be overthinking, yes, but that's exactly what I need in order to give myself reasons to even work on different Dragons for this game or mod to boot and not piss people off with this. People wished for more Dragon variants after all instead of just Brown + Red we have as only choices in games and well, where else can I get assets for them if not HoMM III, a game that is having crystal clear ties with MM7?? :|

Not to even mention it's common sense as well. Jadame and Antagarich (and Enroth) are all clearly ocean-separated continents (you don't see any traces of them on each individual world maps) from my knowledge, so of course Dragon evolution would go differently in each continent, thus making them look all different. You don't get to find Thunder Lizards and Wyrms in Antagarich OR Jadame for that reason after all and time constraints in making said games or not, gotta keep this in mind as well and let's not forget other factors that would stop Dragons from freely migrating from one continent to another, thus making them all different, mainly overhunting by Charles Quixote's Dragon Hunters and all events that happened on Antagarich before MM7 aka a subject of Heroes III that would cause mad swings of Dragon population overall. I might be an overthinker but a least I keep track on where exactly in game's lore/history these games are at. Without mentioning that Jadame is clearly a completely different land compared to Antagarich or Enroth because well, we obviously have Dark Elves and Wererats, beings that don't show up anywhere else in the lore of MM or Heroes games.

And even then, just ask yourself, would you want to have the same 2 Brown (Ithilgore and Brimstone) and Red (Flamdring, Duroth the Eternal) Dragons as only choices in the game/mod when it comes to hirelings/character choices, just like how we only have 2 Minotaur and 2 Troll variants when it comes to living ones to choose from, which makes sense in the 1st place, as they don't change as much as Dragons do between continents at all (only exception being cow-like Minotaur villagers in Balthazar Lair)? :|

Apologies if I went at you like this, but some anvils need to be dropped and I'm not allowing my weeks of work to go to waste simply because of people like you separating the game lores into different categories even if they're clearly connected with each other. For someone that claims that likes seeing this Dragon variant you're definitely making an effort of NOT wishing to see it inside the game/mod. :| :| :| In my vision that is. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I feel by your comment there.


Nah I didn't say anything about not wanting to see the black dragon in the game, I just questioned your rationale, which seems to be going deeper into things than the developers themselves were :D Completely unrelated stuff. Having another dragon is cool, but you don't really need to go as far as you are to rationalize it. "Having another dragon" is enough of a justification, really, because 3 is better than 2. Like I said, two separate teams were working on MM and HoMM and the communication between them was less than ideal, that's probably why you see different looking dragons in HoMM3 compared to MM6-8. But the dragons in MM6 through 8 are consistent with each other in terms of appearance, which leads me to believe there was never a conscious effort to make them any distinct from each other, as in other subspecies or something - the single team just kept rolling with the same design and improving it slightly between each game. They're just... more dragons, really. The games just needed dragons and the devs made some. Devs are not always lore maniacs like some of us fans, unfortunately.

Oh, and there's also that thing where you call your new dragon "Antagarich", and yet you go to Garotte Gorge and see whole flocks of fellas just like him flying around, and none like that on Antagarich proper. Which has both green and red ones instead... so yeah :D
Last edited by Xfing on Jun 25 2019, 11:36, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Jun 25 2019, 11:35

Xfing wrote:Nah I didn't say anything about not wanting to see the black dragon in the game, I just questioned your rationale, which seems to be going deeper into things than the developers themselves were :D Completely unrelated stuff. Having another dragon is cool, but you don't really need to go as far as you are to rationalize it. "Having another dragon" is enough of a justification, really, because 3 is better than 2. Like I said, two separate teams were working on MM and HoMM and the communication between them was less than ideal, that's probably why you see different looking dragons in HoMM3 compared to MM6-8. But the dragons in MM6 through 8 are consistent with each other in terms of appearance, which leads me to believe there was never a conscious effort to make them any distinct from each other, as in other subspecies or something - the single thing just kept rolling with the same design and improving it slightly between each game. They're just... more dragons, really. The games just needed dragons and the devs made some. Devs are not always lore maniacs like some of us fans, unfortunately.

Oh, and there's also that thing where you call your new dragon "Antagarich", and yet you go to Garotte Gorge and see whole flocks of fellas just like him flying around, and none like that on Antagarich proper... so yeah.

And that's the thing about the entire thing: some fans are bigger lore maniacs than the devs are and that's why I'm making a conscious effort of taking everything in regard before doing anything on my side. Like I've said in a previous comment, I don't wish to piss people off. Fans that are lore maniacs are said people as well and you know what happens if you piss these off (remember the Forge town's fate aka what caused Heroes III devs to go with Conflux side aka Light Side ending of MM7 in Armageddon's Blade expansion). O_O
Also yes, still planning to do either Azure or Gold Dragon, but honestly I don't know where to put them in base game/mod, thus they'll be classified as "optional content" ... and I'll do one or the other just so we can get at least an even number of variants, like it seems to be a norm in MM series.

Why do you think I suggested some of them to be changed to either blue or red variants of themselves while the Megadragon would be one of these Black ones as well? ;) What devs couldn't do due to time constraints, we do!
Last edited by SpectralDragon on Jun 25 2019, 11:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Xfing » Jun 25 2019, 11:39

SpectralDragon wrote:And that's the thing about the entire thing: some fans are bigger lore maniacs than the devs are and that's why I'm making a conscious effort of taking everything in regard before doing anything on my side. Like I've said in a previous comment, I don't wish to piss people off. Fans that are lore maniacs are said people as well and you know what happens if you piss these off (remember the Forge town's fate aka what caused Heroes III devs to go with Conflux side aka Light Side ending of MM7 in Armageddon's Blade expansion). O_O


I feel that's actually a different thing, because people's outrage at the Forge town and considering it "inappropriate" usually weakens drastically the more a person actually knows about M&M lore... Yeah, I like lore too, and I still can't live down the fact that Forge got scrapped. So if anything, these might be considerations of tone or atmosphere, despite their justification in the lore. Most Forge complainers are just severely ignorant as to where it came from in the story. They're passionate about the game they know, but they fear and reject what they don't understand, basically.
Last edited by Xfing on Jun 25 2019, 11:46, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Jun 25 2019, 11:48

Xfing wrote:I feel that's actually a different thing, because people's outrage at the Forge town and considering it "inappropriate" usually weakened drastically the more a person actually knew about M&M lore... Yeah, I like lore too, and I still can't live down the fact that Forge got scrapped. So if anything, these might be considerations of tone or atmosphere, despite their justification in the lore. Most Forge complainers are just severely ignorant as to where it came from in the story. They're passionate about the game they know, but they fear and reject what they don't understand, basically.

Yus-yus, thus gotta check all corners before being sure to add any new potential stuff, 'lest we have a mob on all our heads ... and to make sure we're all on the same page on stuff like this. When it comes to Azure, Gold and (maybe) Green Dragon, they all have their basis in MM games (MM6 for Gold, MM7 for Green, potentially both games for Azure), thus I feel no shame in making them PCs as well, even if they would serve nothing more than to just be hirelings/NPCs to be chatted with in the base game/mod as well as the "even number" bit that MM games like so much. :'D (shrug)
As for non-humanoid Zombies and (optional) Liches, it's all due to gameplay mechanics of said games, thus yeah, I'm confident that I have all covered even if lore maniacs would be yielding pitchforks at my noggin for these. In the end though, we'll see what will Rodril say. I only hope that the Black Dragon will achieve what it was made for in the 1st place and, if not, at least serves as a random hireling/NPC/Dragon Ability trainer outside of Jadame. ^^;

Speaking of Garrote Gorge being populated by what seems like Black Dragons only even if NPCs and PCs suggest otherwise, I also found it weird that Crystal Dragons, especially Ruby and Sapphire Dragons, don't have their respective sprites changed to reflect that. I plan on mending that after PCs and missing apparel/gear for this mod is dealt with. ;) ;)
Last edited by SpectralDragon on Jun 25 2019, 11:56, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby KankiBoldman » Jun 25 2019, 12:51

Jezebeth Noir wrote:How can we get the master necromancer class?


Do you mean the expert to master skill upgrade? or from necromancer to lich promotion? Or did I miss something?

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Xfing » Jun 25 2019, 14:56

KankiBoldman wrote:
Jezebeth Noir wrote:How can we get the master necromancer class?


Do you mean the expert to master skill upgrade? or from necromancer to lich promotion? Or did I miss something?


As things are right now, you can ironically get a Master Necromancer with any class except a Necromancer from Jadame :D

To do that you need to have either an Archmage or Master Wizard and talk to Su Lang Manchu in Paradise Valley, he'll change you into a Master Necromancer. Jadamean Necros are doomed to become Liches instead for now. Maybe something will be done about this, it has already been reported.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Templayer » Jun 25 2019, 15:24

KankiBoldman wrote:
Jezebeth Noir wrote:How can we get the master necromancer class?


Do you mean the expert to master skill upgrade? or from necromancer to lich promotion? Or did I miss something?

There is a Master Necromancer class for those that do not wish to become Liches. (new content)
Something like what Archibald is. He teaches GM in Dark Magic. Yet he is not a Liche. And he is not a priest of the dark either.
He is a Master Necromancer. :)
Last edited by Templayer on Jun 25 2019, 15:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Templayer » Jun 25 2019, 15:31

SpectralDragon wrote:Spoke about cow (female) minotaurs

Yeah, actually that is something that is still missing from the game. We can see female minotaurs in MM8, but we cannot play as them.

I can already hear Xfing's voice in my head "oh no, no female minotaurs, we need to get armours first, do armours first! I command you to do armours first! Do what I say! Me, me, me!"
:D :D :D

(I do not personally care WHEN armours are going to be gone. It's going to be years before I'll have enough time to play the Merge anyway. :P )

Also Spectral - do not worry about what GrayFace said about your Black Dragon. It's going to be in the Merge. If Rodril says no as well, then I will code / change it myself and put it online as an optional modification. :tsup: :hug:
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Jun 25 2019, 15:44

Templayer wrote:
SpectralDragon wrote:Spoke about cow (female) minotaurs

Yeah, actually that is something that is still missing from the game. We can see female minotaurs in MM8, but we cannot play as them.

I can already hear Xfing's voice in my head "oh no, no female minotaurs, we need to get armours first, do armours first! I command you to do armours first! Do what I say! Me, me, me!"
:D :D :D

(I do not personally care WHEN armours are going to be gone. It's going to be years before I'll have enough time to play the Merge anyway. :P )

Also Spectral - do not worry about what GrayFace said about your Black Dragon. It's going to be in the Merge. If Rodril says no as well, then I will code / change it myself and put it online as an optional modification. :tsup: :hug:

Well, if I do decide to do them, it'll be probably just as a test and after I'm done with other assets, mainly Troll and, well, other Dragon variants (you can see above on how much I've exploded on Xfing with pure lorespeak regarding Black Dragons. Apologies. ^^; :D :D). Apparels will definitely come after GrayFace posts his tutorial-like video on how exactly to approach the entire matter because about that I'm confused as FFFFFAAAAAAAAA :D :D :D 8| Especially when it comes to Angelic Helm and Doomsday Cloak because I LOVE them.

Thank you, seriously. :hug: I don't know how can I repay you aside trying to put your assets in as well, even if it might be in vain. Gotta have variety after all ... and a way to stop lore maniacs from coming for our heads ... even though I wonder how does the entire "random hireling" rotation work. It's like constant/same hirelings each playthrough or do they change with each new playthrough?

And speaking of other Dragon variants, if other variants (Black, maybe Dracolich, maybe Ghost, (incoming) Green (?), Gold, Azure) would be too much for you other people, then I support the notion of them being bundled in a separate mod named "Dragons of Enroth" and have it all as optional modification as long as it doesn't replace pre-existing Brown and Red ones, instead adding them as new random NPCs/hirelings.
Last edited by SpectralDragon on Jun 25 2019, 15:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Templayer » Jun 25 2019, 16:21

SpectralDragon wrote:Thank you, seriously. :hug: I don't know how can I repay you aside trying to put your assets in as well, even if it might be in vain. Gotta have variety after all ... and a way to stop lore maniacs from coming for our heads ... even though I wonder how does the entire "random hireling" rotation work. It's like constant/same hirelings each playthrough or do they change with each new playthrough?

These are random I think, based on restrictions akin to the Character Creation.

Actually I checked for you! Their race and class is randomly generated by the restrictions based on them by LUA scripting. Specifically:

Code: Select all


local ClassTypesByContinent = {
   [1] = {2, 3, 6, 7, 12, 13, 15},       -- Jadam
   [2] = {1, 2, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 11, 14},    -- Antagrich
   [3] = {1, 2, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 11, 14}     -- Enroth
}

   local ClassByRace = Game.CharSelection.ClassByRace
      or {
         -- Human
      [0]   = {[0]=true,[4]=true,[12]=true,[16]=true,[22]=true,[26]=true,[30]=true,[34]=true,[42]=true,[44]=true},
         -- Vampire
      [1]   = {[40]=true},
         -- Dark elf
      [2]   = {[0]=true,[8]=true,[12]=true,[30]=true,[34]=true,[42]=true},
         -- Minotaur
      [3]   = {[4]=true,[12]=true,[16]=true,[20]=true},
         -- Troll
      [4]   = {[38]=true},
         -- Dragon
      [5]   = {[10]=true}}

   local PortraitsExceptions = Game.CharSelection.PortraitsExceptions
      or {
         -- Jadam
      {},
         -- Antagrich
      {8,9,10,11},
         -- Enroth
      {8,9,10,11}}



... I could make an Mercenary Generation Unlocker with this knowledge! :D :D
Last edited by Templayer on Jun 25 2019, 16:23, edited 1 time in total.
MMMerge Tracker (= Info + Paint Tracker + Bug Tracker + Missing Features + Suggestions):
https://goo.gl/ui24Bz
Anybody can view or suggest edits.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Roticet » Jun 25 2019, 16:24

Templayer wrote:
SpectralDragon wrote:Spoke about cow (female) minotaurs

Yeah, actually that is something that is still missing from the game. We can see female minotaurs in MM8, but we cannot play as them.

I can already hear Xfing's voice in my head "oh no, no female minotaurs, we need to get armours first, do armours first! I command you to do armours first! Do what I say! Me, me, me!"
:D :D :D

(I do not personally care WHEN armours are going to be gone. It's going to be years before I'll have enough time to play the Merge anyway. :P )

Also Spectral - do not worry about what GrayFace said about your Black Dragon. It's going to be in the Merge. If Rodril says no as well, then I will code / change it myself and put it online as an optional modification. :tsup: :hug:



And yet, that's all this thread has become. Do what Templayer and Spectraldragon want only. No one else suggestion even matters. Project much Templayer?


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