Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby GrayFace » Jun 23 2019, 23:47

Templayer wrote:"the class skill bonus/penalty system is conceptually better suited for the base game" - This must NEVER be for the BASE merge. As an optional modification? Fine. But stop forcing non-vanilla limitations onto others. You have tried that numerous times in this thread. I'm tired of it. Seriously. :wall:

Xfing has an opinion that's different from yours. Get over it, it's not the end of the world.
I too think adding bonuses and restrictions to vanilla race-class combos in the base game may be good. Certainly not like Xfing have laid out in that table, it's way too much. But what I really want added to the base is a limited number of new race-class combos with seriously different skillsets. It also has to undergo some testing before being included into the Merge core.

Jamesx wrote:I see, that the game voices was encoded via IMA ADPCM audio codec with 4bit, 22kHz, 88kb/s. My software can use this codec for compression, but it' maximal parameters is 4bit/44kHz...
I tried another ADPCM by Microsoft, but in game it works bad, most times the voice just not play, or started from the middle and it's broken. Idk, maybe there is another codec supported by the game, but if not... Anyway, I think that 4/44 is enough, it sounds pretty well, but if you want a better quality, you have to teach the game to use another audio codec :D.... or try to make IMA ADPCM work with higher quality encoding. I even don't know what is worst :devious:

16-bit PCM, 44Hz works fine.

Templayer wrote:Source doesn't automatically mean "not compressed enough for the project", but just that - a source. If I did it the way you think I did, would have made uncompressed wav files in the first place. But I did make 320 kb/s .mp3 in a format that I believe could be used in-game as well, since .mp3 compresses it enough to be usable like that. :P

The game only uses WAVs. You just downgraded their quality for no reason by converting to MP3.

SpectralDragon wrote:and I'd suggest you chat with GrayFace about making the game read non-music .mp3s just as well as it reads non-music (read "voice") .wavs. (shrug)

Meaning just as badly :D I'm actually surprised they aren't supported already (just tested it). I would've assumed MP3DEC.ASI would cover that too, eventhough I never thought of this before.
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Jun 24 2019, 0:09

GrayFace wrote:
Jamesx wrote:I see, that the game voices was encoded via IMA ADPCM audio codec with 4bit, 22kHz, 88kb/s. My software can use this codec for compression, but it' maximal parameters is 4bit/44kHz...
I tried another ADPCM by Microsoft, but in game it works bad, most times the voice just not play, or started from the middle and it's broken. Idk, maybe there is another codec supported by the game, but if not... Anyway, I think that 4/44 is enough, it sounds pretty well, but if you want a better quality, you have to teach the game to use another audio codec :D.... or try to make IMA ADPCM work with higher quality encoding. I even don't know what is worst :devious:


16-bit PCM, 44Hz works fine.

SpectralDragon wrote:and I'd suggest you chat with GrayFace about making the game read non-music .mp3s just as well as it reads non-music (read "voice") .wavs. (shrug)


Meaning just as badly :D I'm actually surprised they aren't supported already (just tested it). I would've assumed MP3DEC.ASI would cover that too, eventhough I never thought of this before.


Really? 16/44 works in-game as well without any serious changes to either the game or sound files? Great to know! :D Since for now, both me and Jamesx only have 4/22 and 4/44 aside Templayer's "source" audio files he's showcasing in his MMMerge Voice Showcase videos (Liches, Zombies). I'm mainly doing that in order to make sure there won't be any problems once said voice files would be checked on for implementation, since yeah, really wish them to be in-game as a nod to all instances where the voice changes from condition to condition (which, of course, happens when changing someone to either Lich or Zombie) ... aside getting them more recognizable and individual as well. ;) :)

Glad to bring this up then. Gotta check all corners after all, so that stuff don't get missed ... and thank you as well. :hug: The email I sent you is mainly for the purpose of sharing both 4/22 and 4/44 voice files Jamesx did from Templayer's "source" files, even though you can easily get those "source" files by checking said videos (only ones to actually have "MMMerge" in their title last time I checked, actually). ;)
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Xfing » Jun 24 2019, 4:38

GrayFace wrote:Xfing has an opinion that's different from yours. Get over it, it's not the end of the world.
I too think adding bonuses and restrictions to vanilla race-class combos in the base game may be good. Certainly not like Xfing have laid out in that table, it's way too much.


Well then, in that case guess optional is the way to go :D Though I believe it would somewhat alleviate the problem of there not being any meaningful differences between the races in the long haul, apart from appearance (also negligible starting resistance differences and preferences of certain monsters for attacking certain races first). Elder Scrolls always did a good job at making its races distinct enough with all the properties that it offers. What do you think about a minimized version of this approach? Say, two +1 bonuses and two -1 penalties per race and that's it? That way the impact would be rather small, but at least it would be testable and based on the players' feedback we could then take it further if it was warmly received. Example: Elves would get +1 to Bow and Meditation, but -1 to Mace and Bodybuilding, and that's it. The analogous would be done for the other race, just with other skill pairs.

But what I really want added to the base is a limited number of new race-class combos with seriously different skillsets. It also has to undergo some testing before being included into the Merge core.


Like I said before, I also like this idea a lot. In fact, I even have one idea already, had it for some time in fact. The Pirate - representing Regnan pirates of course. Promoted to Corsair. Should have been the MM8 version of the Knight in the first place IMO, given that game's proclivity for "exotic" classes. Based on humans by default, I'd use some of the MM6 guys, most definitely the male with the eyepatch for example. Sword and armsmaster skills stay as they are, Spear and Shield degraded to master, but Leather is GM. Can't use Plate, Chain limited to Expert. Body Building capped at Master like knights already had in MM8 anyway. Master or even GM at Disarm Traps and should have high Dodging skill too, based on how in lore they usually fight unarmored. Also higher ID Item skill and possibly master in Merchant. There are many more possible options for such classes too of course, though I'd imagine making promotion quests for them all would take some doing :(
Last edited by Xfing on Jun 24 2019, 10:02, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Jun 24 2019, 12:03

GrayFace wrote:The game only uses WAVs. You just downgraded their quality for no reason by converting to MP3.

Is there a difference between standard 180 kHz mp3 files and what Templayer did though, which is 320 kHz .mp3? Legit curious just in case this mess with new voice files can be made even better than how it is nowadays.
Xfing wrote:Well then, in that case guess optional is the way to go :D

I support this notion. Let those new race-class bonuses and restrictions be optional, so that people can choose whenever to get them in or not. I can imagine people would much rather prefer having a choice in this rather than to have this forced upon themselves. We aren't using users of this mod as forced guinea pigs after all, do we? :tongue:
Last edited by SpectralDragon on Jun 24 2019, 12:09, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Xfing » Jun 24 2019, 12:25

SpectralDragon wrote:I support this notion. Let those new race-class bonuses and restrictions be optional, so that people can choose whenever to get them in or not. I can imagine people would much rather prefer having a choice in this rather than to have this forced upon themselves. We aren't using users of this mod as forced guinea pigs after all, do we? :tongue:


Like I said in the PM, I consider this idea nothing more than a continuation of the MM7-introduced class mastery cap itself. It just adds another factor, which is race, rather than just class. Quite a popular design choice in RPG games too. Up to Rodril to decide, as always. If he considers the idea an improvement across the board, then let him include it. If not, it could always be a separate mod for those interested.
Last edited by Xfing on Jun 24 2019, 12:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby KankiBoldman » Jun 24 2019, 13:13

I have no Idea what people are talking about, tried to read and understand, but TLDR for me, but here is my few coin pieces to this topic even tho I'm not sure if i'm talking about the same thing here :D I enjoy the Might & magic merge very much that is present I could support the idea that other Classes/Races differ MORE from the beginning with different stats and abilities etc... Maybe some traits or some other things, you name it. also would like to see some new Humanoid portraits and classes ( I think Echo did them back in the day, but the download links are broken nowadays.. ), for example that Pirate Xfing talked about few comments earlier. Just a wild idea, but like Age of Empires has this team bonus or some little bonuses to its unique civilization would those bonuses have any place for Might & Magic? Like Knight would buff other warrior classes with something or that pirate could give some sea travelling price reduction, elf's would have more bow skill than others? maybe some race/class combos would give passive skills or abilities etc.. Nothing too OP, but something nice for the early and to the late game. But that's just my few pieces for this one.. But I think these new additions should be thought and added after the priorities are done and tested not just add new stuff after another :P ( I'm sorry if this had nothing to do with earlier posts :D )

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Jun 24 2019, 13:29

We shall see in the end. My best hope is that it doesn't backfire horribly, implemented or not. (fingers crossed)
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Xfing » Jun 24 2019, 14:38

Well, to be perfectly fair, the skill system of this game lets you predict what your character will be able to do and how good they will be at it simply if you know their skill caps (if you've played this game at length and know how it works). For that reason we are able to predict the impact way before implementation through simple, old-fashioned theorycrafting.

Let's take that Elf alteration suggestion as an example. +1 to bow and meditation, -1 to bodybuilding and mace. So an elf sorcerer would be really good here - getting GM meditation instead of just M, while the penalties wouldn't really affect them. Archers and paladins would get master meditation at the cost of expert or basic bodybuilding, same with Rangers but those would also get GM bow and expert meditation rather than just basic. Paladins would however lose one of their biggest selling points in GM mace. In general there'd be a nice, symmetric tradeoff of HP for mana, with some other side effects. Naturally this would also serve to make certain races better at being certain classes, but any race as any class would still be perfectly playable and let you finish the game.

As you can see, rather than "imposing unnecessary restrictions" as some would frame it, this actually gives you more variety in classes' abilities and almost creates "sub-classes" if you will, sometimes to exciting effect (such as when a class restricted to master gets GM), with tradeoffs to make it feel fair.

An option worth considering of course would be to leave humans unaltered, just to let the players still experience the traditional, unaltered classes. Humans seem to be the logical choice for that, as they're the most plain and mundane race.

So yeah, as long as you're OK with an archer that has master meditation instead of expert and is s hit with the mace, which he wouldn't have used anyway, then I guess this can't really backfire :p
Last edited by Xfing on Jun 24 2019, 14:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Xfing » Jun 24 2019, 14:47

Oh, and for the record: I would be for giving minos more than +2 for boosts or no penalties (or any configuration thereof) just to compensate for them not being able to wear helmets and boots :D

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Jamesx » Jun 24 2019, 16:18

Wow, what a war here))) 8|
Maybe I don't understand correctly.. Honestly, I tried to read all of the last pages, and I still don't understand this mess around new characters, voices, skills, classes.. But anyway, my opinion is that the Merge mod should just combine original base mm6, 7 and 8 into the one solid game. That's all. It would be very disappointing for me to see all our drakoliches, minozombies, minotrolls, dwarftrolls, all these skill enchancements and other "improvements" in the base mod. All of ideas, that I saw here are great and deserve to be in game, but as separate mods only. I think there even should be a separate topic for discuss it - most of our posts at last 20-25 pages is beyond the project "MM678 Merge". :|
But, until we still here... Lets return to our matters :D :D :D
Here is a port of awesome Black Dragon drawned by GDSpectra :applause:
Great job, as always, but this time it's even better :-D Well, I hope my porting didn't bwoke the details :devious:
Image
:down:
DOWNLOAD

Also I tried a Templayer's source voices and it works in game correctly, so there is no need to convert something at all))) you can just bring them into a game as is
Last edited by Jamesx on Jun 24 2019, 16:25, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Templayer » Jun 24 2019, 17:40

GrayFace wrote:
Templayer wrote:"the class skill bonus/penalty system is conceptually better suited for the base game" - This must NEVER be for the BASE merge. As an optional modification? Fine. But stop forcing non-vanilla limitations onto others. You have tried that numerous times in this thread. I'm tired of it. Seriously. :wall:

Xfing has an opinion that's different from yours. Get over it, it's not the end of the world.
I too think adding bonuses and restrictions to vanilla race-class combos in the base game may be good. Certainly not like Xfing have laid out in that table, it's way too much. But what I really want added to the base is a limited number of new race-class combos with seriously different skillsets. It also has to undergo some testing before being included into the Merge core.

I certainly hope you will make a switch for it. Otherwise the Unlocker will have to be more than a single file (and even more update-fragile than now).
GrayFace wrote:
Jamesx wrote:I see, that the game voices was encoded via IMA ADPCM audio codec with 4bit, 22kHz, 88kb/s. My software can use this codec for compression, but it' maximal parameters is 4bit/44kHz...
I tried another ADPCM by Microsoft, but in game it works bad, most times the voice just not play, or started from the middle and it's broken. Idk, maybe there is another codec supported by the game, but if not... Anyway, I think that 4/44 is enough, it sounds pretty well, but if you want a better quality, you have to teach the game to use another audio codec :D.... or try to make IMA ADPCM work with higher quality encoding. I even don't know what is worst :devious:

16-bit PCM, 44Hz works fine.
Templayer wrote:Source doesn't automatically mean "not compressed enough for the project", but just that - a source. If I did it the way you think I did, would have made uncompressed wav files in the first place. But I did make 320 kb/s .mp3 in a format that I believe could be used in-game as well, since .mp3 compresses it enough to be usable like that. :P

The game only uses WAVs. You just downgraded their quality for no reason by converting to MP3.

Guys. I just checked my files, including the one I have send everyone in the .7z - they are wavs, PCM, 1411.2 kbps (checked multiple of them), 44100 Hz.
I mean I do not remember <self-censorship>, but where the heck did that whole mp3 debacle come from? :D

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SpectralDragon wrote:
Jamesx wrote:

Guys, did you actually try putting my "source" files into the game directly? :D

Also only cool people know what Wolfhound is. B-)

EDIT:
Jamesx wrote:Also I tried a Templayer's source voices and it works in game correctly, so there is no need to convert something at all))) you can just bring them into a game as is

(facepalm) :D :D :oex:
Last edited by Templayer on Jun 24 2019, 17:44, edited 2 times in total.
MMMerge Tracker (= Info + Paint Tracker + Bug Tracker + Missing Features + Suggestions):
https://goo.gl/ui24Bz
Anybody can view or suggest edits.

My youtube retro channel: www.youtube.com/Templayer

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Jun 24 2019, 17:43

Jamesx wrote:Wow, what a war here))) 8|
/.../
But, until we still here... Lets return to our matters :D :D :D
Here is a port of awesome Black Dragon drawn by GDSpectra :applause:
Great job, as always, but this time it's even better :-D Well, I hope my porting didn't bwoke the details :devious:

:down:
DOWNLOAD

Also I tried Templayer's source voices and it works in game correctly, so there is no need to convert something at all))) you can just bring them into a game as is

That's why I hope Rodril comes back soon. Nowadays only he can sort this mess up and stop all people (including us) from tearing ourselves apart. ^^;

That aside, THANK YOU! :hug: :hug: I only hope all this porting didn't leave too many traces inside your game. ^^; You deserve a reward for your efforts.

Awesome! :D :D Just awesome!
Templayer, look at Jamesx's comment there. :tongue: :tongue:
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Templayer » Jun 24 2019, 17:45

SpectralDragon wrote:Templayer, look at Jamesx's comment there. :tongue: :tongue:

I did and I responded moments before you did.
MMMerge Tracker (= Info + Paint Tracker + Bug Tracker + Missing Features + Suggestions):
https://goo.gl/ui24Bz
Anybody can view or suggest edits.

My youtube retro channel: www.youtube.com/Templayer

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Jun 24 2019, 17:54

So yeah, with that, I'm heading off to get myself ready for the incoming week of absence. Sorry to say this to all coders and modders of this mod, but I kind of got some expectations for the next update that will make it just perfect for me to test this amazing awesomesaucy mod (since as I've said many times now, I wish to play as a Ghost Dragon that has his own voice set). ^^; My expectation for the next update is that it'll contain these things:
:down:
-> New Minotaur assets (Liches, Zombies)
-> Black Dragon (optionally already swapping the Red Dragon placeholder for the Warlock promotion quest with itself)
-> Uncommon Liches and Zombies (Minotaurs, Dragons, Trolls, such ones) having their own set of voices instead of "default" ones they currently have (we went through lots of hurdles to prove that they're easy to implement as they are ^^; )
-> Any big bug fixes that can be done
:up:
Aka basically what is seen in the Implementation Queue of Templayer's Tracker. ^^;

Once I return, I'll either start editing Trolls (Zombies first!) or I'll try my hand with missing equipment as long as any of you can provide me (and other people like Crusader) videos on how to actually do that, so that we don't mess up. :D ^^; Seeya in July! :wave:
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Jun 24 2019, 17:58

Templayer wrote:I did and I responded moments before you did.

Good Ancients, I think we're acting too much like Usain Bolt here. :D :D :jester:

Let's not forget missing Dwarf Zombies! :devious: Gotta patch ALL the "holes" that the base Merge has when it comes to character roster before optional characters start incoming and with both Troll and Dwarf Zombie being the only missing assets to fill the "holes" left when it comes to Zombie condition ... yeah. Dwarf one is for Jamesx though, as I have no idea how to approach it. I'll do Troll instead. :D :D :D

@everyone, which Troll should be Zombified, Green Troll (Overdune) or Blue Troll (Volog)? My vote is on the Green Troll, but don't be afraid to say otherwise. ;) :tsup:
Last edited by SpectralDragon on Jun 24 2019, 18:30, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Xfing » Jun 24 2019, 18:58

Jamesx wrote:Wow, what a war here))) 8|
Maybe I don't understand correctly.. Honestly, I tried to read all of the last pages, and I still don't understand this mess around new characters, voices, skills, classes.. But anyway, my opinion is that the Merge mod should just combine original base mm6, 7 and 8 into the one solid game. That's all. It would be very disappointing for me to see all our drakoliches, minozombies, minotrolls, dwarftrolls, all these skill enchancements and other "improvements" in the base mod. All of ideas, that I saw here are great and deserve to be in game, but as separate mods only. I think there even should be a separate topic for discuss it - most of our posts at last 20-25 pages is beyond the project "MM678 Merge". :|


I agree on principle, but there's something to consider:
For one - Rodril has already unlocked a certain number of class and race combinations that weren't possible otherwise. He selected the logical ones of course, but he also skipped some that would have been otherwise sensible, due to lack of graphical assets to take them all the way, such as mino liches. SpectralDragon's new graphical assets, such as the very mino lich for example, do nothing but remedy this problem and contribute only to extending a feature already partially implemented by Rodril :) I on principle believe that unlocking the sensible race/class combos in the base game (by "sensible" I mean of course no stuff like Troll Minotaurs etc) is definitely within the spirit of merging the three games. I would also prefer to first see complete integration in terms of equipment, but that is yet to come.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Jun 24 2019, 19:16

Xfing wrote:I would also prefer to first see complete integration in terms of equipment, but that is yet to come.

Your luck that once I return in July I'll try my hand on them when not doing a Troll Zombie (or after completing it) ... and hopefully not mess it up, as GrayFace hadn't posted his tutorial-video on that yet. ^^;
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Roticet » Jun 24 2019, 19:17

Xfing wrote:
Jamesx wrote:Wow, what a war here))) 8|
Maybe I don't understand correctly.. Honestly, I tried to read all of the last pages, and I still don't understand this mess around new characters, voices, skills, classes.. But anyway, my opinion is that the Merge mod should just combine original base mm6, 7 and 8 into the one solid game. That's all. It would be very disappointing for me to see all our drakoliches, minozombies, minotrolls, dwarftrolls, all these skill enchancements and other "improvements" in the base mod. All of ideas, that I saw here are great and deserve to be in game, but as separate mods only. I think there even should be a separate topic for discuss it - most of our posts at last 20-25 pages is beyond the project "MM678 Merge". :|


I agree on principle, but there's something to consider:
For one - Rodril has already unlocked a certain number of class and race combinations that weren't possible otherwise. He selected the logical ones of course, but he also skipped some that would have been otherwise sensible, due to lack of graphical assets to take them all the way, such as mino liches. SpectralDragon's new graphical assets, such as the very mino lich for example, do nothing but remedy this problem and contribute only to extending a feature already partially implemented by Rodril :) I on principle believe that unlocking the sensible race/class combos in the base game (by "sensible" I mean of course no stuff like Troll Minotaurs etc) is definitely within the spirit of merging the three games. I would also prefer to first see complete integration in terms of equipment, but that is yet to come.


Well, why not change the race classes into strictly races and open up classes to all. That's more of what NWC wanted with MM8, but couldn't implement due to time constraints. So, one could argue that's keeping with the spirit of the game. It is more restrictive than Templayer's unlocker, but could be easily implemented. Though dragons should be restricted to dragons without Temp's unlocker.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Templayer » Jun 24 2019, 19:44

SpectralDragon wrote:@everyone, which Troll should be Zombified, Green Troll (Overdune) or Blue Troll (Volog)? My vote is on the Green Troll, but don't be afraid to say otherwise. ;) :tsup:

I'm voting for blue, unless you can do something really cool and contrasting with the green one. The standard "zombification" procedure might not be ideal for the green one, since he is already... green. :D
MMMerge Tracker (= Info + Paint Tracker + Bug Tracker + Missing Features + Suggestions):
https://goo.gl/ui24Bz
Anybody can view or suggest edits.

My youtube retro channel: www.youtube.com/Templayer

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Jezebeth Noir » Jun 25 2019, 2:25

How can we get the master necromancer class?


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