Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Xfing » Jun 22 2019, 15:39

Templayer wrote:I refuse to use Discord since Discord doesn't work on Windows XP. It could. A guy even game them source codes that when combined with their code would make Discord work on XP. They refused. So I refuse to support them.


You're taking this weirdly personal, considering that XP is by now a seriously outdated system (even though it was great in its day) and that it's only natural that some applications and service providers are going to assume everyone's on 7 or 10 these days, rather than making extra effort to accomodate XP too. Especially weird, since you also have Win 7 on your system, so there should be no meaningful obstacles for you to use Discord :P
Last edited by Xfing on Jun 22 2019, 15:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Jun 22 2019, 15:41

Roticet wrote:I agree spectraldragon. I'm just saying that there is no need to talk down to me about computers. I built combined unix and windows machines to set up servers for the military. So I'm well aware of dual and multi booting. And yes, I mean unix, not linux. Building those damn systems was like building a paper thin glass house with only rocks as the only supplies. Now, I don't know that much about coding, but if we can pinpoint whether the issue lies with hardware vs software, that eliminates some things. With that being said, I would agree that this is more and more sounding like the update having issues. But also saying that the latest update is completely broken is false. As I am running it just fine. Broken for some yes, for all, no. If the latest update that rodril sent out doesnt work, try jamesx's version since that works.

Respect. Respect, respect, respect. That's just all. O.O
Yus, I'm suspecting it's something about the update as well and thus I suggested coders like Templayer to try pinpoint where that fault is, so that Rodril can get exact info on it and eliminate it as efficiently as he/we can. Teamwork will make this mod the greatness it deserves after all. ;)
Myself, I'll await the next update when Minotaur assets would be implemented ... I hope ... and potentially new voices for Liches and Zombies as well, which is actually something I'm chatting about to both Jamesx and Templayer: trying to get the voice files converted in a way that they can be just implemented into the game via some coding, which is actually the question I have for GrayFace: whenever or not we can make the game accept and play voice files that have much greater quality checks (apparently default voice files have 88 kb/s , which is quite low considering that nowadays the quality standard is 128 kb/s and Templayer made his custom voices with 320 kb/s quality. 8| Sure, it made sense back then, but today?) than usual game voice files, kind of like how nowadays the game can play .mp3 music files instead of just .wav ones.
Last edited by SpectralDragon on Jun 22 2019, 15:47, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Templayer » Jun 22 2019, 15:45

Roticet wrote:
Templayer wrote:
Roticet wrote:@Templayer again, you are running a WinXP system, but are using the GOG.com download? Could that actually be your issue? GOG.com's version was optimized for Win7+. They may have tweaked things and caused it to not work properly on older OSes. Really just a spitball at that, but may be worth a look. Do you have a Win7+ machine available to run the Merge?

*sigh*
I never said I am running the Merge on WinXP. I have something that is called a dual-boot. The second system is Windows 7 64bit Ultimate. That is the one I am using for the Merge, with a gog version. You do not need another machine to have more than one operating system.

It is sad how many times I had to explain what a dual or multi boot is. :S



Whoever said you had to explain what a dual or multi boot is? I'm well aware of what that is... >.> Thanks for automatically assuming.... >.> It may have been a while since I really did some major troubleshooting, but I did IT work for about 10 years before getting sick of it and leaving for a security guard job. So, the next time you want to assume that I'm an idiot, just do yourself a favor and realize that all I was trying to do is help pinpoint where the issue lies with your system/game. Because so far, that's the most that you have ever shared about your system. Not much I can do when I don't know what specs you're working with... But I digress, I will let you continue to ***** and complain instead of trying to help anymore. Have a good one. :)

I do not have to take this. Bye.
MMMerge Tracker (= Info + Paint Tracker + Bug Tracker + Missing Features + Suggestions):
https://goo.gl/ui24Bz
Anybody can view or suggest edits.

My youtube retro channel: www.youtube.com/Templayer

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Jun 22 2019, 15:48

Oh Ancients ... -.-;
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Roticet » Jun 22 2019, 16:33

SpectralDragon wrote:
Roticet wrote:I agree spectraldragon. I'm just saying that there is no need to talk down to me about computers. I built combined unix and windows machines to set up servers for the military. So I'm well aware of dual and multi booting. And yes, I mean unix, not linux. Building those damn systems was like building a paper thin glass house with only rocks as the only supplies. Now, I don't know that much about coding, but if we can pinpoint whether the issue lies with hardware vs software, that eliminates some things. With that being said, I would agree that this is more and more sounding like the update having issues. But also saying that the latest update is completely broken is false. As I am running it just fine. Broken for some yes, for all, no. If the latest update that rodril sent out doesnt work, try jamesx's version since that works.

Respect. Respect, respect, respect. That's just all. O.O
Yus, I'm suspecting it's something about the update as well and thus I suggested coders like Templayer to try pinpoint where that fault is, so that Rodril can get exact info on it and eliminate it as efficiently as he/we can. Teamwork will make this mod the greatness it deserves after all. ;)
Myself, I'll await the next update when Minotaur assets would be implemented ... I hope ... and potentially new voices for Liches and Zombies as well, which is actually something I'm chatting about to both Jamesx and Templayer: trying to get the voice files converted in a way that they can be just implemented into the game via some coding, which is actually the question I have for GrayFace: whenever or not we can make the game accept and play voice files that have much greater quality checks (apparently default voice files have 88 kb/s , which is quite low considering that nowadays the quality standard is 128 kb/s and Templayer made his custom voices with 320 kb/s quality. 8| Sure, it made sense back then, but today?) than usual game voice files, kind of like how nowadays the game can play .mp3 music files instead of just .wav ones.


Spectraldragon, that's all I was trying to do. While I dont know much about coding, I can at least help eliminate other options that could be issue.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Xfing » Jun 22 2019, 18:33

Ok, I haven't contributed anything of note in a while, so it's time to make myself useful again. I came up with a proposed draft of how race could influence classes. In this concept, races would influence skill caps of classes, it's as simple as that. The effects on gameplay are not drastic, as it's not meant to be an overhaul, but something to increase replayability a little bit and make things slightly more interesting without feeling like an all-out mod. Mix-and-matching classes with races for optimal results could now become an engaging pastime :D

Of course this only takes into account race and class combos presently available within the merge, so I didn't bother to give Trolls a penalty to magic skills for example. But it's of course only a first draft and revisions will be made to it based on your feedback.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1f7znEE ... sp=sharing

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby GrayFace » Jun 22 2019, 20:10

Templayer wrote:I refuse to use Discord since Discord doesn't work on Windows XP. It could. A guy even game them source codes that when combined with their code would make Discord work on XP. They refused. So I refuse to support them.

I only ran standalone Discord app once when I needed its voice functionality, which isn't working in the web version.

SpectralDragon wrote:
GrayFace wrote: :gong:

I have a question.

...which you forgot to write
My patches: MM6 MM7 MM8. MMExtension. Tools. Also, I love Knytt Stories and Knytt Underground. I'm also known as sergroj.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Jun 22 2019, 20:16

GrayFace wrote:...which you forgot to write

I actually didn't. I implied it in Roticet's response here:
/.../ and potentially new voices for Liches and Zombies as well, which is actually something I'm chatting about to both Jamesx and Templayer: trying to get the voice files converted in a way that they can be just implemented into the game via some coding, which is actually the question I have for GrayFace (aka you):
whenever or not we can make the game accept and play voice files that have much greater quality checks (apparently default voice files have 88 kb/s, which is quite low considering that nowadays the quality standard is 128 kb/s and Templayer made his custom voices with 320 kb/s quality. 8| Sure, it made sense back then, but today?) than usual game voice files, kind of like how nowadays the game can play .mp3 music files instead of just .wav ones.

Can we so this or is it mandatory to use voice files that are converted to the same format other voice files of this game are?
Last edited by SpectralDragon on Jun 22 2019, 20:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Jun 22 2019, 20:50

Templayer wrote:I refuse to use Discord since Discord doesn't work on Windows XP. It could. A guy even gave them source codes that when combined with their code would make Discord work on XP. They refused. So I refuse to support them.

I have Discord on my tablet and phone, so ... yeah, I have nothing on this one. I ain't using Discord app on my laptop as well, if I use it, it's through the web browser. ^^;
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Templayer » Jun 22 2019, 20:51

Xfing wrote:Ok, I haven't contributed anything of note in a while, so it's time to make myself useful again. I came up with a proposed draft of how race could influence classes. In this concept, races would influence skill caps of classes, it's as simple as that. The effects on gameplay are not drastic, as it's not meant to be an overhaul, but something to increase replayability a little bit and make things slightly more interesting without feeling like an all-out mod. Mix-and-matching classes with races for optimal results could now become an engaging pastime :D

Of course this only takes into account race and class combos presently available within the merge, so I didn't bother to give Trolls a penalty to magic skills for example. But it's of course only a first draft and revisions will be made to it based on your feedback.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1f7znEE ... sp=sharing

"No major gameplay overhaul, slight in-game effect, vanilla-friendly" - I disagree with that, strongly. For me this just limits what you can do. Also you can already do this in the Merge, the racial skills table can have negatives which lower the expertise cap. As long as this is an optional download only, then I am fine with it. You cannot do the "clerics cannot use bladed weapons" as of yet, I think. Otherwise editing the racial skills table with GrayFace's txtTableEdit and starting allowed race class combos can be done with relative ease. :tsup:
MMMerge Tracker (= Info + Paint Tracker + Bug Tracker + Missing Features + Suggestions):
https://goo.gl/ui24Bz
Anybody can view or suggest edits.

My youtube retro channel: www.youtube.com/Templayer

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby GrayFace » Jun 22 2019, 21:39

SpectralDragon wrote:whenever or not we can make the game accept and play voice files that have much greater quality checks

Does it actually have problems with it? I'm sure it supports reasonably good wav quality.
My patches: MM6 MM7 MM8. MMExtension. Tools. Also, I love Knytt Stories and Knytt Underground. I'm also known as sergroj.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Jun 22 2019, 21:44

GrayFace wrote:Does it actually have problems with it? I'm sure it supports reasonably good wav quality.

According to Jamesx, it's yes (was chatting with him about this via email) and thus in order to have custom voices work in the game they need to be severely downgraded in quality (to 88 kb/s) and have either 22 (native game) or 44 Hz (top limit of when they still work) frequency, which breaks many edits that Templayer put into them. Both me and Jamesx have converted voice files for comparison with "source" voice files that Templayer is showcasing in his MMMerge Voice Showcase videos (Liches, Zombies) and you can either ask me to provide them or send an email to Jamesx for them.
Last edited by SpectralDragon on Jun 22 2019, 21:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Xfing » Jun 22 2019, 22:05

Templayer wrote:"No major gameplay overhaul, slight in-game effect, vanilla-friendly" - I disagree with that, strongly. For me this just limits what you can do.


Look at it more in terms of how much more in fact you can do with this, rather than in terms of what it doesn't alloew you to do. It's still more than the basic, unedited version of the merge gives you, at the very least, and something that gives you dozens of new possibilities isn't bad solely because it doesn't give you hundreds. I just threw this out there for Rodril to see and make of it what he will. Believe it or not, but sometimes limits are actually a good thing. Less is more, was it? It's easier to direct and focus your imagination if you have some restrictions to follow. For example, learning about really big, yet finite numbers and what they are (such as the tritri or Graham's number) helps the average mind much more to grasp the concept of infinity than just telling them that it's, well, infinite. A thematically closer example: why do you think HotA is in general more popular than WoG? I think it's because it's straightforward and limited, yet focused. It adds a restricted amount of new content, intuitive and easy to use, just like any previous expansion. WoG on the other hand adds so much stuff that it's easy to get lost in the seemingly infinite possibilities that it offers. A scripting language of its own, map elements with no uses assigned to by default - most people will just spend days figuring out what new functionality to use and how to use it, while in HotA they'll just get to making the map right away, since their finite but well-understood set of tools doesn't take focus away from creating the actual map to pondering the plethora of options. Same with LEGO - usually the trick is to build the best thing you can only with the bricks you have. When playing around with the digital lego creator software, with no such restriction you're more likely to get lost in browsing and admiring the miscellaneous parts than actually making a project (unless you possess high levels of self-control and mental discipline). That's the problem with platforms providing too many options such as WoG does - most works created using them will be glorified showcases of the platform's new possibilities, rather than high quality productions whose merit comes from their content.

Same goes for MM. If people had found the character creation system drastically lacking to the point of ruining the fun, the games wouldn't have such a passionate community to this day. Having the possibility of mixing and matching classes with races to the degree that we currently have in the base merge is already a huge new world of choices opening to the player. Enforcing a set of race restrictions or bonuses to skill caps would give these choices a meaning beyond just aesthetics and if done properly, increase replay value by making players want to try for example one time an elf druid, another time a dwarf druid - both providing advantages over the other that the other doesn't have, yet both useful and rewarding to play beyond what the vanilla MM7 druid offers. On the other hand, with the Unlocker people seem to have a hard time exercising restraint, and the biggest pastime seems to be outdoing each other at coming up with the most outlandish race/class combos, or even parties. For that reason I think developing the class skill bonus/penalty system (not necessarily in the form I presented it in, mind you) is conceptually better suited for the base game - Rodril has in fact already begun implementing it with several racial skill alterations such as the axe bonus for minos.

Don't take this as anything more than a suggestion and I hope you understand my perspective.

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Crusader_bin » Jun 22 2019, 22:30

Roticet wrote:
SpectralDragon wrote:Pals, please, don't fuel the fire here. I'm feeling uncomfortable just reading all this and I'm already doing a fire-breathing being for this mod. ^^; Any person here deserves better than this.
Templayer wrote:Nice portrait!

Thanks, inconsistencies aside. ^^; But well, when it comes to editing them picture by picture, they're pretty much bound to happen, so I cannot do much when it comes to minor inconsistencies. :wall:
GrayFace wrote: :gong:

I have a question.



I agree spectraldragon. I'm just saying that there is no need to talk down to me about computers. I built combined unix and windows machines to set up servers for the military. So I'm well aware of dual and multi booting. And yes, I mean unix, not linux. Building those damn systems was like building a paper thin glass house with only rocks as the only supplies. Now, I don't know that much about coding, but if we can pinpoint whether the issue lies with hardware vs software, that eliminates some things. With that being said, I would agree that this is more and more sounding like the update having issues. But also saying that the latest update is completely broken is false. As I am running it just fine. Broken for some yes, for all, no. If the latest update that rodril sent out doesnt work, try jamesx's version since that works.


I don't think the update is broken at all. I uploaded my whole game folder with it installed somewhere above, once on mega and once on One Drive after someone had an issue with it.
No idea what could be the issue, but if the package would be broken, than everyone would have issues.
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Jamesx » Jun 22 2019, 23:02

SpectralDragon wrote: :down:

GrayFace wrote: :down:

About voices...
I see, that the game voices was encoded via IMA ADPCM audio codec with 4bit, 22kHz, 88kb/s. My software can use this codec for compression, but it' maximal parameters is 4bit/44kHz...
I tried another ADPCM by Microsoft, but in game it works bad, most times the voice just not play, or started from the middle and it's broken. Idk, maybe there is another codec supported by the game, but if not... Anyway, I think that 4/44 is enough, it sounds pretty well, but if you want a better quality, you have to teach the game to use another audio codec :D.... or try to make IMA ADPCM work with higher quality encoding. I even don't know what is worst :devious:

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby SpectralDragon » Jun 22 2019, 23:06

Jamesx wrote:About voices...
I see, that the game voices was encoded via IMA ADPCM audio codec with 4bit, 22kHz, 88kb/s. My software can use this codec for compression, but it' maximal parameters is 4bit/44kHz...
I tried another ADPCM by Microsoft, but in game it works bad, most times the voice just not play, or started from the middle and it's broken. Idk, maybe there is another codec supported by the game, but if not... Anyway, I think that 4/44 is enough, it sounds pretty well, but if you want a better quality, you have to teach the game to use another audio codec :D.... or try to make IMA ADPCM work with higher quality encoding. I even don't know what is worst :devious:

Hopefully we can teach the game about other audio codecs/make that ADPCM work with high quality, but if not at least we're ready with 4/44 thanks to you. :hug: :D
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby MoxOpel » Jun 23 2019, 6:07

Anything I need to do to get quests working in MM6? I just tried with the first quest in the tavern and Andover doesn't talk to me when I hit "Quest". Also anyone else in the first village won't grant any of their "quest" lines or some alternative texts.

Maybe I am missing some files from MM6, I have all 3 games installed. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thank you for the hard work!

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Crusader_bin » Jun 23 2019, 8:20

MoxOpel wrote:Anything I need to do to get quests working in MM6? I just tried with the first quest in the tavern and Andover doesn't talk to me when I hit "Quest". Also anyone else in the first village won't grant any of their "quest" lines or some alternative texts.

Maybe I am missing some files from MM6, I have all 3 games installed. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thank you for the hard work!


I had the very same problem initially, but it turned out my installation must have been borked.

Try getting the whole installation that I have: https://1drv.ms/u/s!ApRnFqsQnp62rjsOZV3 ... c?e=Nn5r5h
Just empty your game folder and copy this.

Or try just reinstalling the mods if that's faster for you.
Fresh MM8 -> Main mod -> update.
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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Templayer » Jun 23 2019, 9:55

Xfing wrote:On the other hand, with the Unlocker people seem to have a hard time exercising restraint, and the biggest pastime seems to be outdoing each other at coming up with the most outlandish race/class combos, or even parties. For that reason I think developing the class skill bonus/penalty system (not necessarily in the form I presented it in, mind you) is conceptually better suited for the base game - Rodril has in fact already begun implementing it with several racial skill alterations such as the axe bonus for minos.

You still do not get the purpose of the Unlocker. It is to go wild for people that have finished the games hundreds of times. And they have the full right to, since that is one of the main appeals of a MOD. :wall:

"the class skill bonus/penalty system is conceptually better suited for the base game" - This must NEVER be for the BASE merge. As an optional modification? Fine. But stop forcing non-vanilla limitations onto others. You have tried that numerous times in this thread. I'm tired of it. Seriously. :wall:

"Rodril has in fact already begun implementing it with several racial skill alterations such as the axe bonus for minos" - yes, and it was my suggestion to add racial skills, skills bound to race instead of class. So you really do not have to tell me that "fact", when I was the one who proposed it, it got implemented, and then I made a racial skills overhaul modification (if you would please take a look at the optional modifications for the merge section of the tracker...)
MMMerge Tracker (= Info + Paint Tracker + Bug Tracker + Missing Features + Suggestions):
https://goo.gl/ui24Bz
Anybody can view or suggest edits.

My youtube retro channel: www.youtube.com/Templayer

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Re: Might and Magic 6, 7, 8 merge based on mm8 engine. [upd. 10.06.2019]

Postby Templayer » Jun 23 2019, 10:00

SpectralDragon wrote:
Jamesx wrote:About voices...
I see, that the game voices was encoded via IMA ADPCM audio codec with 4bit, 22kHz, 88kb/s. My software can use this codec for compression, but it' maximal parameters is 4bit/44kHz...
I tried another ADPCM by Microsoft, but in game it works bad, most times the voice just not play, or started from the middle and it's broken. Idk, maybe there is another codec supported by the game, but if not... Anyway, I think that 4/44 is enough, it sounds pretty well, but if you want a better quality, you have to teach the game to use another audio codec :D.... or try to make IMA ADPCM work with higher quality encoding. I even don't know what is worst :devious:

Hopefully we can teach the game about other audio codecs/make that ADPCM work with high quality, but if not at least we're ready with 4/44 thanks to you. :hug: :D

I would like to thank you both for trying so hard to get my work implemented. I seriously couldn't have handled downgrading it to a cr-aptastic ancient codec. I seriously wish that GrayFace will modify it so that the game would accept and play any .wav or .mp3 for non-music audio, like he did for the music (which was originally in the redbook format, if I remember correctly).
MMMerge Tracker (= Info + Paint Tracker + Bug Tracker + Missing Features + Suggestions):
https://goo.gl/ui24Bz
Anybody can view or suggest edits.

My youtube retro channel: www.youtube.com/Templayer


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